Picture this: You’re told to ditch the hat if you want to be taken seriously. Instead, you double down, wear it louder—and your business explodes.

In this juicy episode of Communication Queens, Kimberly Spencer sits down with Jamar Jones, founder of FourEva Media, for a no-BS conversation on how owning your vibe is the ultimate visibility strategy. From his hip hop roots to headlining keynote stages (yes, sometimes with a live performance), Jamar breaks down why 1,000 true fans are worth more than a million random likes—and how congruence is the secret sauce to building a magnetic personal brand.

Together, they unpack:

• What “branding from the inside out” really means
• Why your childhood dreams and cringe moments are branding gold
• How falling on your ass (literally) can skyrocket your relatability
• When it’s time to hire professionals to elevate your aesthetic
• The energetic difference between a business brand vs. personal brand

Whether you’re stepping out from behind the biz curtain or ready to stop blending in, this convo is your permission slip to get louder, weirder, and way more YOU—because the world doesn’t need another copycat. It needs your story, your sparkle, and yes… your hat.

Grab your mic, Queen. Let’s brand from the soul.

😎Get booked on the TOP 5% of podcasts that can build your brand awareness and your bottom line. Book your $100K Profit from Guest Podcasting Planning Call here: https://www.communicationqueens.com/get-booked-on-the-top-podcasts

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Connect with Jamar Jones

Website: https://www.fourevamedia.com

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/relatablejamar/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/fourevamedia

Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/fourevamedia

X: https://twitter.com/fourevamedia

Enjoy, sovereigns!

Listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, Amazon Music, or your other favorite podcast listening platform. You can also watch the episode on Youtube.

What You’ll Learn in this Episode:

1. Why You Only Need 1,000 True Fans (Not 1 Million Followers)

Jamar breaks down the real metric that moves the needle in business: deep, authentic connection. If your fans show up, buy, and share—you win. Period.

2. The Power of Brand Congruence

Discover why your brand must match your actual life, values, and energy—or risk losing trust and attracting the wrong audience. This is about being aligned, not just "on-brand."

3. How Personal Style Becomes a Signature

From Jamar’s iconic hat to Kimberly’s sparkly photoshoot moment, you’ll hear how personal expression isn’t just about fashion—it’s branding that sticks.

4. The Hidden Cost of Branding Inauthentically

When you build a brand that doesn’t reflect who you really are, it creates inner friction, audience confusion, and eventually—burnout. Learn how to course-correct with intention.

5. Branding from the Inside Out

Before you hire a stylist, revamp your website, or shoot new headshots—get clear on your story, values, and voice. Jamar shares how to start within so the outside shines right.

6. How to Own the Stage (and Your Story)

Whether you’re an ex-rapper or recovering perfectionist, this episode shows how to turn your past performance skills (or awkward moments) into business-building charisma.

7. The Link Between Vulnerability and Visibility

Hear why sharing your failures can grow your following faster than curated perfection ever could—and how to do it with integrity, not oversharing.

Quotes:

"You don’t need a million followers. You need 1,000 ride-or-die fans." ~ Jamar Jones

"Your quirks? That thing that makes you weird? That’s your brand superpower." ~ Kimberly Spencer

"You don’t have to be loud to be bold. You just have to be real." ~ Kimberly Spencer

Links & Additional Resources:

• Make Every Podcast Want You: https://www.communicationqueens.com/book

• Kajabi: https://app.kajabi.com/r/MX99LzaL

• Visibility Consult: https://calendly.com/communicationqueens/visibility-consultation 

Moments of Note:

00:00 – Welcome, Queen!

 Kimberly sets the tone: visibility, branding, and how storytelling sets the soul on fire.

02:00 – The 1,000 Fan Philosophy

 Jamar shares the concept that changed everything: You don’t need millions—you need ride-or-dies.

04:22 – Podcast Mic Drop: Book Plug + Mission Reminder

 Kimberly drops her two-time gold medalist book + sets the listener's transformation intention.

06:10 – Branding: It’s Not Optional

 "Everyone has a brand—whether you're intentional or not." Jamar breaks down what branding really means.

09:30 – The Hat That Built a Brand

 Jamar shares the iconic story of his hat—and how NOT conforming made him unforgettable (and profitable).

13:20 – When Your Closet Doesn’t Match Your Soul

 Kimberly reflects on feeling out of alignment with her brand—until a styled shoot changed everything.

16:45 – Elevate or Stagnate: When It’s Time to Upgrade Your Brand

 Old speaker reel? Outdated photos? Jamar shares the signs it’s time to level up.

20:10 – Branding Starts Within

 Before the outfits, colors, and content—you need self-awareness. Jamar explains why branding is an inside job.

23:38 – The Congruence Gap

 Do your values match your actions? Kimberly and Jamar talk about the branding breakdowns that create confusion (and self-sabotage).

27:05 – Social Media, Comparison & The Lie We Tell Ourselves

 Highlight reels vs. real life: how social media creates aspirational branding with no foundation.

30:35 – Hip Hop Trained Me for This

 Jamar’s backstory as an artist—and how performance became his greatest entrepreneurial asset.

34:00 – Visibility Pro Tip: Rep Your Weird

 What makes you “different” is what makes you stand out. This is your permission slip.

36:15 – From Mic to Keynote: How Jamar Blends Art with Business

 Yes, he still performs—then transitions right into a keynote. Branding = full integration.

39:40 – Performance Roots Build Visibility Confidence

 Why people with stage experience (even musical theater!) crush it in the visibility game.

43:05 – Learn the Craft: Communication is a Skill, Not a Talent

 Whether it’s podcasting, speaking, or pitching—this is a learnable art.

45:30 – Epic Fails + Stage Crashes

 Jamar shares his most embarrassing moment on stage (yes, there was falling involved 😅).

48:25 – The Pop Culture Bomb That Flopped

 How a Game of Thrones reference bombed at a corporate talk—and the lesson for every speaker.

51:00 – Read the Room: Host–Guest Dynamics

 The subtle art of managing energy, body language, and flow in interviews and live talks.

54:00 – Vulnerability as Strategy

 Kimberly and Jamar discuss why sharing your mistakes isn’t weak—it’s wildly magnetic.

56:45 – Jennifer vs. Anne: A Visibility Branding Case Study

 The Jennifer Lawrence vs. Anne Hathaway dynamic—and what it teaches us about relatability.

1:00:12 – The Secret to Social Growth? Share the Messy Middle

 The deeper the share, the deeper the impact. And yes—your audience is craving the real you.

1:03:20 – Final Mic Drop: How to Work with Jamar

 Jamar shares how to connect, collaborate, and get your brand leveled TF up with FourEva Media.

1:05:00 – Wrap Up: What Story Is Your Brand Telling?

 Kimberly brings it home with an invitation: speak your story, share your soul, and let your voice be heard.

TRANSCRIPTION

Jamar Jones - Podcast Interview Summary Jamar emphasizes the importance of building a strong brand, and how every person has a brand whether they are intentional about it or not. He believes that having 1000 core fans is more important than having a large number of fans or followers. Jamar also shares his story of how he started wearing a hat and how it became a part of his brand. He advises hiring professionals to help elevate your personal brand and living congruently with your values. Ishmael Mayhew discusses the concept of congruence and where people typically fall on the scale of congruence. He explains that many people lie to themselves about where they are, and that social media can contribute to this. He also mentions his background in hip hop and how he integrates it into his brand, stating that being in the entertainment industry has given him a competitive advantage in business due to his experience with promoting himself and running his own brand. He encourages others to workKen speaks on his failure stories and how communication is an art that takes practice and training. He shares a few stories from his experiences with speaking and performing, including a large music show where he got drunk and fell on stage, and a keynote where he and his colleague made too many niche references that the audience didn't understand. He also discusses how to read the dynamics of the host-guest relationship and the importance of being in rapport and breathing during interviews. In this episode, host Kim Spencer interviews Jamar Jones, the founder of FourEva Media, a personal branding agency. Jamar shares his journey and how he got started in the personal branding world, along with some of the biggest mistakes he sees entrepreneurs making when it comes to branding. He also gives tips on how to master public speaking and shares the power of being vulnerable and authentic in your messaging.

Transcription Need to have 1000 fans. That's it. 1000 fans. And there's no. Don't search million. Don't 100,000. Whatever it is, all that vanity number type stuff, you need 1000 core fans that if you drop something there, there. If you got to show there there. If you got new merch that just that just dropped there buying it, you know, new CD, whatever it is like you. And this goes for business too. You need your thousand fans that no matter what you do. Because that way if you go into different things there, right there for you. Before we dive in, let me tell you about the book that started a podcasting revolution. Make every Podcast Want you. It is not just a bestseller, it is a two time gold medalist. Baby, this book is your ultimate guide to landing dream podcast interviews, building authority authentically and making your voice the one they remember. If you've got a message and a mission, this is your mic drop moment. Grab your copy today in the link below and step into the spotlight. Thank you were born for. Welcome to the Communication Queens podcast for the visionary leaders, speakers, service providers and podcasters who are looking to stand out sharing their story. I'm your host, Kimberly Spencer, former screenwriter turned master communications coach. On this podcast, I'll be coaching you on how to share your own transformation story so that you increase your visibility, influence, and income on podcast interviews. Let's get your voice heard. Jamar. Welcome to Communication Queens. I'm so excited to have someone who is so expertly branded practicing what you preach in branding. Yeah, thanks. I live it, I breathe it, it's my life. I mean, I can't get away from it even if I tried. I'm always a big advocate for people really showcasing their brand, letting them share their story, which you are as well. And that's why I'm super excited to be be a part of this. Yeah. So what? I mean, what does having a brand mean to you? Yeah, I, I think, well, everybody has a brand. Every single human being on planet Earth has a brand. The question is, do you actually have control over your brand or do you let others control it for you? That's the real question. Um, because we're always branding, we're always marketing, we're always showcasing who we are and who we represent, um, day in and day out. And oftentimes the things that people say when you're not in the room, it's oftentimes your brand. Um, you know, when you can't be in there to, you know, articulate yourself. What are they saying when you're not in the room? So I think having a brand is super important. Everybody has one, but it's about being intentional, about getting out your message, your story. And what do you want people to know you for? You know, is it just getting drunk and partying and, you know, you're just with a bunch of people all the time and you don't really have any direction in life. And yeah, I was like, yeah, they just go wherever. Or do you want to be known as somebody that's that's got goals, visions, missions, you know, uh, it has value they want to put into the world. You have a unique story that you want to tell you. You have a plan in your mind of like, hey, I'm here now, but I'm going here, you know, that's that's showcasing your brand of who you are. Um, and then just what you represent, like, what do you stand for? What are your values, your morals? Um, those type of things that that really cements you in as, like, hey, I know that person for this. And so the more you can make sure that that's your intentional about those, those efforts, the more you're going to have more opportunity just in this world. And so that's why I'm a big believer in it. Mm. Yeah. It's actually something that I'm teaching my six year old son right now is the power of branding, because he somehow has decided that it's okay to just wear the same outfit like do three days in a row. And I'm like, no, we need to change your outfit. Change your underwear, please. And and style your hair. And he's like, but mom, nobody else cares, I said. At this moment. Or maybe not to your face. They don't say anything. But being aware of how people perceive you. Like, he has a beautiful, effervescent personality. And it's like, whether we like it or not, we do. 55% of communication is physiological, which means it is based on how you look. And one of the things that I've loved about your story is the story of the hat. Yes, yes. Um, look, I mean, I it's so hard because I was just talking to a, I did a presentation for a group of young adults, so pretty much high school students. Um, it was about 240 of them. And I told them about the story of the hat. You know, where, uh, you know, people told me, like, you got to take the hat off if you want people to take you seriously, if you really want to make it, especially when speaking and for your business, just people to take you, like, have respect for you. Um, to get in the type of rooms that you want to get in. And I kind of started to do that for a second, and I started to change my whole business and my website looked different. Everything just wasn't me. It was just like real corporate. And I don't know, it was somebody else, somebody else that was running that company for a little bit. And then the moment that I started to be like, you know what? I'm just super uncomfortable with all of this, and I'm I can't fake it anymore. You know, I just need to just be be me. I'm, as a former hip hop artist, like, I got hip hop. I got a little that hip hop in me so I can't shake it. So I need to just dive deeper into it. So once I started putting the hat back on, I actually noticed the opposite effect where I started getting more business, more clients, more people wanted to work with me, more speaking engagements because I started to dive deeper into what makes me unique as an individual, and people started to know me for having the hat on. So if I ever didn't wear it like if I had a suit on or something, they're like, no, where's your hat? You know, like, I don't even know. I didn't even know this was you. So it just just whatever that unique ability for yourself, and especially with style and fashion and, you know, apparel and stuff, I feel like if you can express yourself through that. Like, I mean, you got the nice gold chain with the blue on, like that's memorable. It's like you're making a statement and it's it's super cool. And the more you can do that, the more people you can can remember you later on. And you'll that that's where more opportunities come up for you. As long as you can actually be active in people's minds and have that brand stay along for a while. I did the same thing in my e-commerce company a decade ago and became this, like, buttoned up professional and the idea of like showing shoulders or having any bit of my, like, sensuality exposed. Suddenly that was like, no, you don't do this. We're a startup. We're selling a back stretching device. Like it just it started to not resonate and the like, I was like, who is this person that I created? And I remember when I was bought out of that company and I started my coaching company, Crown Yourself, and I did my first photoshoot for the company, and I knew all the things that I wanted it to be. And I looked at my wardrobe and I was like, I have no clothes that represent me, like nothing represented me. Everything was some caricature that I've created and some buttoned up corporate president of an e-commerce startup. Like it wasn't sparkly and vivacious and bright and owning, like all of who I am. And I actually had to get a had to hire a stylist for the photo shoot just so that I could have clothes that actually represented my actual persona. Yeah. Yeah. I highly recommend if you got a little extra means to hire a stylist because I did that. Um, about I think it was like four years ago, I needed another I need a read. I need a redo. Um, but I did about four years ago, and he put me in certain colors and, like, just in, like, this jacket that I normally wouldn't wear and, like, it just was he he really just expanded on, like, what I was already doing, but pushed me a little bit out of the zone where I didn't really wear a lot of bright colors and stuff. But now, like, I got shorts that are like pink and orange and like these teals. And I got, you know, I kind of grew into it. I'm like, oh, oh, this is good. Color is good, color is good, color is delightful. Yes, I like and I love that. I completely agree with hiring professionals to like, allow yourself to elevate those areas that you may not recognize. Need to be elevated like I know for you and forever media like you're elevating video and audio production and the quality of event experiences. What do you see as the need for that level of elevation, and when do you see when somebody's like, got a brand that it's time to actually level up with quality? Yeah. I um, oftentimes it's, uh, it's it's really the starting point where people just start doing something. But if you can get to a point where, you know, you've been. So we've worked with a lot of speakers before where let's say, you know, you're getting gigs, you're you're you, you have your coaching business, you're you're moving things forward. Right? And you've been doing it for a few years. But man, your website, it's just like the pictures are from ten years ago. Um, you got, you know, your old speakers reel and it hasn't been updated in a very long time. You know, you have, um, certain branding assets that you use that are just really outdated, and it's not really connecting with anybody anymore. Um, that's where I will say you need to, you know, elevate your game because it's like, if you want to go to the next level and you want, you know, to increase your speaking fee or you want to increase your, um, the type of clients that you're going to get, you got to show up there like you're ready for that. You know, you got to be with the times. Be relatable. Be able to connect. And so that is really the time that you want to elevate what you're doing in the quality, you know from video, photos, um, the designs branding, just the overall experience of of working with you. You want to meet people where you want to be at. Um, instead of like, where you were 100%. Yeah. I think that that most people make the mistake when I have coached leaders like where they're their branding, they've spent so much time building their business, and their business has a brand, but their personal brand is non-existent. And so when a leader is like starting to step out of the shadows from behind their business and they're putting themselves out there, what do you find needs to come first? Do they need to get clear on their values of understanding? Like what actually is that personal brand? Do you start from the outside in of looking at style, aesthetics, that where do you start in, in understanding the evolution of the brand journey? Yeah, yeah. Great. Great question. Um, really where you start is you start within, um, you have to understand yourself first before you can start to personal brand yourself out to the market. Um, because they'll eat you alive. They're like vultures out there, man. They'll. They'll eat you alive if you're not sinner. And you love yourself and you know you don't understand. Like what you're really in it for. And, um, you have to dig deep and understand your story and your message and the value proposition that you that you really provide to the world. And then once you understand that that's where you start, is you start on the value proposition. And once you understand that, then you know what you can give to the world. Then it's about how am I actually marketing and competing that out with everybody else to let people know, hey, this is my gift and this is what I'm bringing to you. And here's the value proposition that I have. Um, and then you know where to go. You can kind of direct and steer, steer your ship. And instead of going in a direction that wasn't meant for you. And so it always starts within before you go, uh, anywhere external. One of the things I've seen with my coaching clients is that there's a a difference between what they say they value and what they actually value. And I found that congruence is such an important principle when it comes to anything that's branding or business. Because so often like say for example, you say family is a huge value for you, but you're not spending any time with your family. And. That if you want to promote that as having family be a part of your personal brand, how is your lifestyle actually congruent with what it is that you're preaching and how you're showing up? When you are doing that exploratory phase of helping your clients understand that level of who they actually are versus who they may think they are or who they may want to be. Where do you see people on the scale of congruence? Typically? Oh man, I that's such a good question. No one's ever asked me something like that as far as like that. Do you have a question that, uh, I think most people, they think they're somewhere else. Um, and really, they're they're not close to it. So, like, they think they're. So it's where they want to be. It's where they think they are, if that makes sense. But where where they are is oftentimes they're also still trying to figure out who they like, where they came from. So it's there's like a lot of discovery about, um, the person in their story and kind of digging and going backwards to find out what. Like, why am I unique? What is the the thing that I really care for? What do I really want to, um, provide, you know, value into this world? Like, what are the main things like we've had people, especially if they're an executive or, um, they're in a certain industry, they may be like, oh, I'm really passionate about tech. And then we start to uncover and go deeper and deeper and know tech is not really the thing you're passionate about. It's actually people, you know, it's it's it's like, yeah, you like the the like you're not the one doing the software, the engineering, the the coding, the the developing part of the tech. You like the experience, you like the people you like, you know, um, the camaraderie, bringing people together for change, you know, for like more of a mission aspect. And so when you start to uncover that, it's like, oh, I've always said, I'm just like, all about tech. I'm like, that's tech is like an outlet. That's not 100% why you're doing this. So it's it's it's digging deep and understanding that and, and trying to get that story down first. And then you start to go in the direction of where where you're trying to go. Yeah, I think a lot of people lie to themselves as far as. Yeah. And not out of like malice or not out of like intentionally lying, but there is a desire to have that aspirational version of us, and we can only meet that aspirational version when we're accepting of actually where we're at and do both the inner and the external work to thus get to that aspirational version. So we're actually embodying that, because otherwise when I see people who have not yet fully embodied the values that they say that their brand preaches. That's where they start to manifest self-sabotage. And yeah, um, they they get haters out of nowhere and they're not able to withstand the, the hate or the heat because suddenly there it does trigger those impostor syndrome feelings because it's not actually them that they're actually personifying or embodying to be anyways. Right? Right. It's such a crazy like. And I think it's I think it's all I think it's because of social media. That's that's why I think people I think naturally you want to be further along than where you're at. But social media, like you look at these people's highlight reels of their lives and you're like, well, these people are so much further. And so I, I think that I'm there, but you're really not there yet. And it's just like an unfair thing to like, you know, try to strive for that. But really it's like there's especially when there's a lot of work that needs to be done. Like some people like you think just to get there, it's easy steps, like there's work that has to happen for you to work internally on yourself and then start to then share that out with the world. And then whatever the world gives you back, like it's it's a very. You have to be good with yourself and and your message and who you are. Your story and not really care about what other people got going on. I mean, they have their own paths and destinies and journeys, but just just focus on yourself and it'll happen for you when the timing is right. How did your background in hip hop kind of train this worldview for you to, so that you keep your blinders on for what you're doing? Oh man. Because entertainment is like the worst. It's the worst. You see everybody, everybody's getting it. I mean, it's because everybody is is a spokesperson for their own brand and especially like within hip hop. So when I was a hip hop artist, you know, you see all these other people climbing up there getting fans or they're maybe getting record deals there. They're performing all over the place. And, you know, they they got a they got merch, they got their CDs. They, they got a commune built. They're like building all these pieces. And you start to get a little envious, you know, and because it's just the worst, like everybody's promoting themselves and entertainment. Um, it's not like people are kind of hiding behind the like everybody's out there. So I learned this because. I was like, look, I'm. I control so much within my own sphere, in my own circle of influence. If you're listening to this interview thinking, I want to do that, I want to be on your podcast. I want to share my brilliance with the world. Then I have got the service for you. It is called Pod Match. Think of it like Bumble, but for podcasting, this AI powered platform matches you with the right podcast host so you can pitch less and get booked more. I've used it to land aligned interviews that amplified my voice and built my brand. It is literally one of the services I recommend in my best selling award book, Make Every Podcast Want You. Sign up now at Pod Match.com in the link below. So I just need to focus on what I got going on. And, um, there's a book I read called Tour Smart, and this book it talks about, um, that you need to have 1000 fans. That's it. 1000 fans. And there's no. Don't search. Fill in, donate 100,000. Whatever it is, all that vanity number type stuff. You need a thousand core fans that if you drop something there, there. If you got a show there, there. If you got new merch that just that just dropped, they're buying it, you know, new CD, whatever it is like you. And this goes for business too. You need your thousand fans that no matter what you do. Because that way if you go into different things, they're right there for you and you at least have a kickstart into what you need to do. So that is that's the key that I learned early on is like, I don't care what other people got going on. I need to build my thousand fans. And then I whatever's meant for me is meant for me. And if it becomes more than that, cool. Are you still dabbling hip hop? I, uh, so I do, I do, I still write, um, when I have the time. Um, which is. Next to never. Um. But I also, um, I also so I have my keynote and at times, if the venue is right in the audience is right, I'll actually do a performance of like 2 to 3 songs. And then I actually turn right into the keynote. So I literally come out performing and the music's going, everything's cracking. People get off their seats and everything. And then I literally put the mic down, go to the lapel, and I go right into the keynote, uh, for Change Your Circle, Change Your Life. So that's probably the only time that I now, like, perform. Um, still. And I still love music. I mean, it's just it's it's always going to be my first love, and I just. I still love it. Still love it. I love how you've integrated it into your existing brand and how it's a piece of how you show up. And I think that's something that's so unique. I was at, um, the Navajo, uh, National Conference, which is the National Association of Women's Business Owners, and there was a keynote speaker Who's who performed opera, and she used her learnings from opera as a demonstration of the principles in which she talked about. And I was like, that is so brilliant, because back, like, I mean, I started out in screenwriting and acting and musical theater and like, that's like putting on a show as is, is a love of mine. And that experience really shaped my understanding of how to communicate a story. And so I can constantly leverage those assets. And when people when it's so interesting, when I meet other service based business owners who who've never been in the entertainment industry or had any interest in any in performance arts or anything like that, where suddenly, as I'm discussing with them about the power of podcasting or, or, uh, marketing your business and getting your business out there, they're like. Secure. It scares me to talk to people and I'm like, how? But. And then it's you know, I remember. Oh yeah, I have 30 years of like entrepreneurship and stages. Yes, yes. And it's a real skill. I was telling somebody, if you're in music or within the arts or the creativity side of, of putting on a show like you, you have an advantage, a competitive advantage against the average entrepreneur that doesn't know what that world is like. You do. I mean, you're especially if you're a solo act, you're actually an entrepreneur that's promoting themselves and growing their own brand and and pushing that out because you have to run the business like you're still running everything. But people just don't call you an entrepreneur. They call you an artist. Um, but really, you are an entrepreneur. So when you switch over and you go to the business world, you have a total competitive advantage. And especially if you use that gift and you showcase it like these other people would be like, man, how do how are they doing this stuff? Like it's so natural to them. It's like, yeah, this is what we lived in like every day. So it's super easy. That's why like, even for me, speaking or doing like podcasts like this or um, media going on TV, everything is simple because like, I've been on stages, I've been presenting myself for so long, it's second nature. I don't have to even really try. It's very organic, you know, for me to do so in this lesson, I would say for people that are listening, it's like, if this is something that's not a skill set to you, just try to grow that confidence within yourself, to push yourself out that out that boundary and try to learn this, this, this communication skill, this media skill, because it will help propel your business. I mean it every single time. It will because you're you become a better communicator and you're actually showcasing who you are. And that's the most like the most valuable thing that you could do as a, as a spokesperson for your business. And so. Learn it, you know, and you don't. You're not going to be instantly great at it, but just learn it. Take some steps in that direction. 100%. Yeah. I have um, I had a conversation with a friend of mine who was taking some speaking lessons and was struggling, and she was just like the the, the coach was really hard on her. And and she goes, she calls me up and she's like, Ken, do I need this? Like, you did your TEDx talk in like three weeks? And I said, yeah. And it took me. I've been doing theater since I was ten years old, so I've had almost 30 years of training that when I was presented with the opportunity to do a Ted talk, I could I knew I could memorize a script, I knew I could write it, I knew I could produce it, I knew I could perform it with it only with a three week deadline. But that's because I've spent 30 years, and I've also been honing the message of that talk over 150 podcast interviews. And so there's there is validity in the practice and in the art of communication and in the repetition and just getting in the reps of getting on stage. And I'm like, I fumbled and failed so many times on stage for sure. I'd love to know. What was your favorite? Uh, well, I mean, I can give you two. So one was music, so. Um, I had a very large show I actually put on the show. It was at Turner Hall in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. Um, rented out the place. Um, it sold tickets for myself. Had, uh, had people open up, and I was the headliner. And I remember it just being such, like, an undertaking of an experience. Um, where I was, I was so overwhelmed with the whole, like, the whole the whole thing and and just just constantly promoting day in and day out and just trying to get people to come up to the show. So and I had to pay the insurance and like, there's just so many things I had to pay for. Where what happened? I was actually drinking too much during like during the day. And by the time I performed at like, midnight, I was gone. I was like, I was absolutely not ready for for that show. So. And I had this part where I'm performing and I would jump up and like, do this kick. And I tried to jump up, do the kick, and I had to slam down right on my butt. Oh gosh. It just hit the ground. And, uh, I bounce back up and cringe every time. But, um, but the people there were like, yeah, you know, like, once I got back up, um. And did you break your tailbone down? No, luckily I didn't break anything. I think just the drinks had numbed everything, I guess, because I was good to go. But it was so embarrassing. Like afterwards, because I didn't even realize I had done it until the next day watching the footage back. And I'm like, oh my God, I've never fallen on stage like that, ever. So that was that was at that time. And then I do remember, um, especially like with speaking. There's, there's always something that you're going to learn, like when you, when you're giving your talk, you know, um, there's different environments, different stages and, you know, different types of audiences. And I remember I did a keynotes or it was really a training, um, with another speaker that we, we kind of went in on it together and we trained about 80, um, 80 plus people in this company retreat. And what happened is, is that we thought that they were all like in the tech, they're the tech space, um, sales force, tech space type stuff. And we thought they were like, they would they would geek out with us. So we had this whole piece of this presentation all about Star Wars and like Game of Thrones and stuff. And like, only probably 30% of the audience actually knew what we were talking about. But I remember seeing my guy just like, try to he was like doing kind of voice acting on it, like he was like acting like he was the the these characters and stuff. And we just. I could just see the crowd just kind of like starting to space out and be like, what are they talking about? We thought it was going to land and hit and and yeah, that that was a little bit embarrassing just because. And this is a lesson for all speakers is like, you really just be careful with like, pop culture and like, you know, things that you think people should know. You might think like Star Wars is the biggest thing. And like, people are going to get this joke. They've seen the movies, doesn't mean that necessarily your whole audience knows about Star Wars. Like careful with movie references, pop culture, like just all that stuff. Just careful because you don't know if it's going to land or not. Yeah, you got a pre-fame movie references and I think give a little bit of context especially. That's what I've seen after bombing as well with movie references, where one time I was giving a, uh, uh, a presentation for a tech company and Fox employees, and I had some music playing and I had only one person was like, is this the Goofy Movie soundtrack? Oh, it was that song by, uh, I forget what his name. It was the one that, you know, the the guy dances at the end. Um, and it was the 1 to 1 song, and he was like this. I was like, yeah, but it was, it was a it was an older group that weren't necessarily millennials who enjoyed Disney movies. So the the track didn't really land as much as I thought it would. Yeah. You think you're probably like getting your presentation together, like, oh, this is gonna kill. This is gonna kill. Yeah, this is a good part. And next thing you do, you're like, hello? I guess it's like, how do you got a power line? Yeah. I it's it's crazy like you. Unless you're literally lessons to come. Well, actually, even if it's the company that that, like, produce something or like that should know I depending on the departments and stuff like even that's not a like I was thinking if you did you know something for Disney, you know, and you put a Disney reference of a movie, like, there would probably be people in the audience that still watch that movie before or I haven't done that. So you gotta just be careful. Like all around. You just don't know what people know. Yeah. And definitely pre framing can really help with giving some context to the experience rather than assume like assuming. I just always ask you asking me. Yeah. If at any time you assume that's just basic rule, just instead of assuming that people know what. And that goes for any framing of any sort of context, like whenever I talk about trauma or anything, I don't assume anymore that people understand how to process or or have a conversation and hold space for a conversation that deals with trauma. Because not we haven't been really taught that as a culture, as a society. So being able to openly communicate and kind of give context to these two stories can really help guide your audience. So you don't get that blank stare. Because, I mean, I'm sure you felt it like when you get that, that zoning off feeling, you can feel it from the audience. And the hard part is, is on a podcast interview. You can't really feel that directly from the audience, but you can from the host. Quick pause. Queen, can I let you in on a little secret to our back end brilliance. It's kajabi. I've been using Kajabi since 2018, before Communication Queens was even born, and it's been my ride or die for. Launching offers, automating emails, hosting courses, and now running this whole podcasting empire. If you are ready to reign online with simplicity, sovereignty and zero tech drama, start your 30 day free trial of Kajabi. The link is in the description. Click it below. Seriously, it's a Queens choice for building an online empire. How do you read when you're in an interview? How do you read the dynamics of the host? Uh, guest sort of relationship? Yeah. Well, if I'm if I'm the guest, I can kind of understand. I'm really at the mercy of the host. I mean, if I'm the guest. Um. And a lot of times I try to. I just try to meet them where they're at. You know, like, I mean, they kind of have something maybe in their own. Of how they want this to go, but I, I try to meet them where they're at, what they want to talk about. But I also try to give them something that is entertaining and inspiring and something that, you know, can actually enter, you know, like, um, keep those, keep people's attention. Um, and the reverse role, if I'm the host and I have a guest that's like, I'm trying to say some stuff and I kind of know they made a little bit, or if I know if it's an old topic or situation, I basically kind of rubber I call the rubber band of you bring it back real quick, and then you go into something else like you, you kind of wrap it up and then you move. I don't have to do it too often, I would say. But there's there's certain times where people you can just tell people weren't ready for a question or, you know, they, they, they need some more context around something or they just don't want to talk about something in particular. And then you kind of just notice those body. It's more of body language and cues, especially in person. Um, but virtually you just try to kind of get a good sense of, you know, body, body language, you know. Eyes. What are they doing? And then you kind of shift, you shift the conversation. I don't know what your experience has been as well. Um, because that is it's it's still a science though. Like it's still something I'm constantly learning how to get better. And yeah, rapport is definitely a practice. And I mean, for me, I notice like, am I breathing like and that's that's just a common question that in any podcast interview I'm like, am I am I just am I breathing? Am I feeling relaxed? Am I feeling comfortable and is the host? Is is the host breathing like if I'm a guest and vice versa? If I'm the host interviewing, I'm like, am I breathing? And is my guest feeling relaxed and comfortable and sharing stories that, like, you did such a beautiful job just sharing such a epically awesome story about failure, which I think is a testament to just your courage and your vulnerability and you being able to go there. And that's what makes you such a great guest. And also it speaks to what you talk about in congruence with your with having congruence around your brand and really knowing who you are, which also comes with owning your mistakes. And you did such an expert job of just demonstrating and embodying what it is that you practice and and do. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we're we're all human and we're we're all trying to just make it through. I mean, that's that's kind of the, the thing I always have in my head. So like, anytime I'm trying to be vulnerable or, or share a little bit of inside of, of a failure, it's like somebody else probably can resonate with this or, um, the more you can humanize your message and just be more vulnerable and more relatable to people. It's just a connection tool as well. You know, the more you can master that and stuff, try to be so closed in or so buttoned up everything. It's like people can kind of see through it too. Um, especially now with social media, I just feel like people can they can see past the BS, you know, or. No, it can't be that perfect. You know, like there's there's got to be some kind of flaw, you know, with you and honestly, the flaws that it helps you, you appear stronger, actually, because people, you know, you share those stories like, wow, that's that's pretty inspiring, um, that you're able to shed and that that connection piece. And then they, they build a deeper connection with you, which just helps. It helps the, the entire, um, way on how we, how we communicate with that with a lot of people, you know, with, um, within media or on a stage, um, in person, 1 to 1, like, the more you can just share your own failures and, and, uh, past experiences, the, the more that they'll actually gravitate towards you 100%. Yeah. And my book, make every Podcast want you to talk about how, um, it's I can I called the Jennifer Lawrence and Hathaway paradigm because if you like. Remember back to the 2013 when Jennifer Lawrence first came on the scene? She's like flipping off the paparazzi and eating McDonald's, her Oscar dress. And meanwhile, Anne Hathaway was positioned as like the perfect statuesque, like, almost Audrey Hepburn esque sort of Academy Award winner. And the press, like, eviscerated her. Like they just eviscerated her. In fact, there was, I think, 1.6 million hits for Anne Hathaway. Annoying at a point, at one point. And since then, her brand has evolved, and I've watched her humanize herself or her PR agent or whoever it is. But she has just evolved and had so much more authenticity around how she shows up. And like Jennifer Lawrence, everyone was praising back then and was like, oh my gosh, she's so cool. I want to be your best friend. And like and but it's because she showcased and shared, like very openly. Here are my flaws. Like and I think that also gives you a sense of um, it gives you power in a way, because then no one can take that from you. If, there's a shrine of secrets. So if you're hiding these failures or foibles or funky things in under a blanket of shame, if someone discovers it, then it's like it steals your power away versus you just owning it. Yeah, yeah, the more you can do that. And actually, that's kind of a secret you just revealed, actually, like a secret hack of how to grow on social media. Um, and we oftentimes see it, but especially on LinkedIn, if you can be more vulnerable and just and get past that shame of of those things because, like, more people probably experience that than you think. And so the more you can openly, the more followers you're going to get. I mean, it's it's just you go and follow your your favorite content creators or influencers, um, in any space, you're going to see their content, like, wow, they're sharing a lot. Like, I don't know if I would share that deep of something, but but then you look at the comments and there's like tons of people like being like, oh my God, I. Thank you so much. And like, I mean, yes, there's power to it. But that's also how you grow on social media too, and especially for your podcast if you want to, the deeper you can go on topics, the the better the content, the the better the result you're going to get. Um, by sharing that with other more listeners, the more followers are going to come from it. So it's kind of this weird thing you think like, oh, I don't want people to know about that, but really you do because you're going to build a deeper connection. Um, 150%. Jamar, I just loved our conversation and your vulnerability and your openness and you very meta explaining and also demonstrating in such a beautiful way. Just it really shows how expert of a craft like you have just mastered the art of communication and speaking, and you're just such a testimony for possibility. And I love that. How can we work with you? How can we connect with you? Plug yourself, my friend. Awesome. Yeah, I the best way is on LinkedIn. Shoot me a message. Um, on LinkedIn. Um, I always respond. Um, unless you send me some craziness and, um, you know, for our media. So it's f o u r e v a media.com. Um, that's where you can find out everything. We're trying to be the ultimate destination place for personal branding, um, to really help, uh, entrepreneurs and executives get to, um, new levels, um, and really help their brand work for them. Um, and, and help them achieve their goals, um, within their career or within their business. Um, we also have a podcast we're going to have Kim on as a guest as well. So I can't wait for that. Um, and yeah, it just follow, follow along. We got tons of experiences, tons of stuff going on. And so there's always something new and exciting. Amazing. Tamara, it's such a pleasure to, to have connected with you. Big thanks and shout out to our mutual friend Jamie White, who was the one who introduced us. Shout out Jamie, Jamie and as always, let your voice be heard. Queen. If what you just heard stirred something in you. If you are imagining how your voice. Your story, your genius could be positioned with the same clarity and magnetism than it's time. Book your visibility consultation with me today. I will guide you personally through a seven step communication queen strategy. Personalized connections to podcasts that need your voice, and an implementation plan that makes you uninsurable. But this isn't for everyone. It's for the visionary who is ready to be seen. If that is you, click the link in the description to book your visibility consultation now. Thank you so much for listening. If you love this episode, subscribe! Leave us a review and share it with your friends. For more tips on guest podcasting, storytelling and communication strategies. Follow us on social media at Communication Queens Agency and visit us at Communication Queens. I look forward to seeing you in the next episode. And in the meantime, remember your story has the power to save one life. Let your story and your voice be heard.