What happens when you chase society’s version of success—only to find yourself burnt out, boxed in, and wondering, “Is this it?” In this audacious episode of The Communication Queens Podcast, Kimberly Spencer chats with powerhouse coach Michelle Pollack, whose mission is to help high-achieving women redefine success from the inside out.

 

From working with brands like Netflix and Bank of America to guiding visionary women leaders, Michelle shares her journey of shaking off the “shoulds,” surrendering perfection, and embracing the beautiful discomfort of beginning again. You’ll hear how motherhood, layoffs, and her own inner work cracked open her next level of purpose—and how allowing herself to take one small step at a time led to a multi-six-figure empire grounded in authenticity.

We go deep into the cultural conditioning that keeps women playing small, the truth about imposter syndrome (hint: it’s not a bug—it’s a signal), and how to balance masculine drive with feminine intuition in leadership.

 

Expect bold truth bombs, heartfelt storytelling, and the kind of clarity that lights a fire in your belly. This isn’t about chasing success—it’s about becoming the woman who defines it for herself.

 

👑 Ready to stop performing and start leading? Press play and let’s redefine what’s possible.

😎Get booked on the TOP 5% of podcasts that can build your brand awareness and your bottom line. Book your $100K Profit from Guest Podcasting Planning Call here: https://www.communicationqueens.com/get-booked-on-the-top-podcasts

 

🦄Join us for our next Podcast Party! Meet other 6 & 7 figure podcast guests, get booked on podcast interviews, and find your soulmate sponsors! https://www.communicationqueens.com/prosperity-purpose-podcasting-party 

 

Want an epic guest for your podcast? Explore our Communication Queen celebrities, and we will support you in getting them booked for your next podcast interview: https://www.communicationqueens.com/our-clients 

 

Michelle Pollack is a high-performance coach who works with ambitious women to redefine what success looks like for them NOW so that their life can FEEL as good as it looks.

 

Connect with Michelle Pollack

 

Website: https://www.michellepollack.com/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/michelleepollack

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/michelle-pollack-pcc-cpcc-5b4a416/

Enjoy, sovereigns!

 

Listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, Amazon Music, or your other favorite podcast listening platform. You can also watch the episode on Youtube.

What You’ll Learn in this Episode:

1. How to Redefine Success on Your Own Terms

• Society, schooling, and even our families plant early seeds about what “success” should look like.
• But as we evolve, so must our definitions of success.
• Michelle invites you to ask: “What do I want now, as the woman I’ve become?”

 

2. Why Imposter Syndrome Isn’t a Sign of Failure—But Expansion

• Feeling like an imposter doesn’t mean you’re not ready—it means you’re growing.
• That discomfort is a signal you’re stretching into new, powerful territory.
• Reframe: If it feels scary, you’re likely on the right track.

 

3. The Power of Being a Beginner (Even When You’re Experienced)

• High-achievers often resist “starting small.”
• Michelle shares how embracing the beginner’s mindset—one tiny step at a time—was key to her six-figure success.
• Letting go of the pressure to “have it all figured out” unlocks long-term growth.

 

4. How Feminine & Masculine Energies Shape Your Leadership

• Michelle introduces “Compassionate Command”—her signature framework blending empathy (feminine) and authority (masculine).
• True leadership doesn’t require choosing between soft and strong—you get to be both.

 

5. Why Boundaries Are Essential to Visibility and Sustainability

• Saying “no” isn’t weakness—it’s wisdom.
• Michelle discusses how learning to say no helped her grow her business, protect her energy, and serve her clients better.

 

6. How to Align Visibility with Your Values

• Visibility isn’t just about being seen—it’s about being seen for who you really are.
• Michelle emphasizes value-driven messaging, aligned podcast appearances, and authentic storytelling.

 

7. Why Speaking (Not Just Posting) Drives Connection

• Michelle shares how podcasting and speaking have been her most powerful tools for connection and credibility.
• If writing content feels draining, use your voice—literally.

 

8. Inclusivity in Leadership: It’s Not Just a Women’s Game

• While Michelle coaches high-achieving women, she discusses how the same principles resonate deeply with men.
• True change requires everyone at the table—and true leadership welcomes that nuance.

 

9. Your Story is Your Superpower

• Michelle’s own journey—from laid-off exec to thriving coach—demonstrates how your “messy middle” moments can become your magnetic message.
• Vulnerability isn’t a liability. It’s your visibility edge.

 

10. Why Personal Growth is Business Growth

• Michelle’s story proves that internal work (therapy, mindset, coaching) directly supports external success.
• Who you become in the process is more valuable than any single milestone. 

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Transcription
Not everybody has to make their job.

The thing that brings them joy.

That's not for everybody.

For some people, that's really what they want.

But we talk ourselves out of those things and what we're capable of.

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Welcome and Introduction

Welcome to the Communication Queens podcast for the visionary leaders, speakers, service providers, and podcasters who are looking to stand out sharing their story.

I'm your host, Kimberly Spencer, former screenwriter turned master communications coach.

On this podcast, I'll be coaching you on how to share your own transformation story so that you increase your visibility, influence, and income on podcast interviews.

Let's get your voice heard.

Shell.

Welcome to the communication Queen podcast.

I am so excited because what you do is so necessary with working with high achieving women to help them redefine success.

As someone who's worked with high achieving women, and in my coaching business, I have seen that there is such a need for what you do.

I am so excited to have you on.

Thanks!

I'm really thrilled to be here today.

Now you've worked with some major clients in some major industries.

I mean, your LinkedIn's got like Netflix and Bank of America and Smuggler, which is a huge advertising company on like.

You've worked with some major players who are in high demand careers.

Defining Success for Women

What is the trend that you're noticing as far as how women have defined success in the past, and where they need to define success in the future?

It's such a great question.

Um, I think that the tendency for women and truthfully, for human beings is to follow the trends of success from, you know, that society sets for us or the ideas of success that our parents have set for us, or that our university set for us.

So it's coming from a very external source, and we tend to define success when we're young.

We, you know, some of us have an idea of what we want when we're in high school, even just going into college.

Some of us find it in college or shortly thereafter, but we have very definitive pictures, usually in our early 20s, of what success means.

And as we grow and evolve and actually experience the world and experience work life, and sometimes have families or in relationships and come into ourselves more and more, that what we want for ourselves tends to change.

But our definition of success does not.

And so it starts to go like this.

And that's where women in particular tend to find themselves stuck, feeling empty, sometimes a bit burnt out because they're spinning their wheels, going after feeling a certain way, and they're checking off the boxes of what they think they want, but it's not aligning with who they've become.

And so when I work with women, we we create a blank slate, like, what does it look like if you get to start from scratch, if somebody said, you don't have to worry about this and this and this and this, all the things you're thinking about and feeling like you have to worry about, what do you want for yourself?

What do you want for your life?

And that's it's a big question.

And a lot of times people are like, oh my gosh, that's a big question.

You know, it's like it it's not always easy for people to answer.

It's not something that we tend to ask ourselves, especially as women.

Yeah, especially as women.

We tend to be very good at knowing also what we don't want.

So we focus on that.

And then knowing the subconscious mind, it just starts to find it and you just start to run into that some places.

Yeah, yeah.

And so you know, when you know what you don't want, sometimes we can turn that and flip like, okay, so what's on the other side of that.

But you're right.

There's it's like easier to know this isn't working but what will work.

Yeah.

And so it takes some exploration and production to do that.

Exploring.

It's very hard to break away from the external viewpoints that we've all we've been taught our entire lives, beginning with our schooling, to look externally for validation.

And so it's it's a total shift in the way we think to turn it back in towards ourselves.

Preach, Michelle.

Like I see why you get paid the big bucks for buying these high achieving women.

I think, you know, looking at those standards that we've set as you've built your business to the multi six figure level while also successfully raising kids and, you know, doing an amazing job.

What did you have to redefine for what you wanted as you as you grew?

Letting Go of the 'Shoulds'

That's a great question.

Um, well, I can tell you, I there was a time in my life where I never would have even allowed myself to contemplate the idea of being an entrepreneur.

So there was a lot of mindset shift that needed to occur.

And I think the way that mindset, those mindset shifts occurred was when I went and did my coaching training, you know, it was like I dipped my toe in the water and it was like, and I've always been very interested in personal growth.

Um, I, you know, I started therapy when I was in my 20s, and I, there were a ton of books I loved, and I was very fascinated by what makes us tick.

How does our brain work?

Um, and even when I worked in entertainment, I would have people say to me all the time, you know, you should be a life coach.

And I was like, that's not a thing.

I was like, that is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.

I don't know what you're talking about.

That's not a thing.

Turns out it's a thing, right?

Um, so when I did eventually decide to explore it, I signed up for that initial class, and I kind of dipped my toe in it.

And once I was there, I was like, oh, this is my thing.

So the work that I had to do in my training was a big part of what shifted my way of thinking, and it really opened my eyes to how we we have so many limiting beliefs that we believe are the truth, right?

And learning to examine our thoughts as like not the truth, but a thought.

And what actually is the truth and what serving us and learning to pull all of that apart just was mind blowing for me.

Um, so I went from being a person who was like, no, I have responsibilities and I don't have what it takes.

Like, I, I'm, I can't make this happen.

And I've often said, I, I don't know, it's if it's because I found the thing that I was like, this is my thing, that all of a sudden I just pushed those things aside at the same time that I was learning how to do that.

And but that's what happened when I found coaching.

I kind of just I'm not even sure if I knew I was doing this at the time, but I,

Beginners and Mindset Shifts

I allowed myself to be a beginner, and I allowed myself to take beginner steps.

So I didn't have the expectation that I was going to have a six figure business the day after I completed my coaching certification, right?

Oh my gosh.

I think like that in and of itself is one of the biggest internet conspiracies.

And the coaching story of like, I started my business six months ago and now it's at six figures, seven figures.

I'm like, that's great.

There are many.

There are some people who can do that and take that level of scale that fast.

But at the same time, it's like slow and steady wins the race and it's like, what are you if you're really in it for service?

And with the focus of like, oh, this is my thing, I can really like, I've been gifted with with an ability to serve people in this capacity, then it's not to say that you won't be making six figures immediately.

It's it's looking at where is the focus.

And like what?

What's your focus on like, let me just drive revenue or what's your focus on like, let me just get a few clients and like help people.

My focus was to start.

So I, um, I trained with a place called it's now called Co Active.

It was CTI when I first started.

So, um, the way they helped us was we had to have a sample client for every one of our sessions, and they trained us to ask that person if they were interested in continuing coaching with us.

So my very first client was from my very first, I mean, we it wasn't my first one.

I think the first one I actually really bombed.

It was my second course.

The second course was my very first client.

We had a terrific call and I asked her to become a client, and it was $40 a session.

And, you know, we met twice a week, so it was $80.

I mean, twice a month.

It was $80 a month.

But I had a paying client.

And of the five, like.

You know, clients that I had to use as training.

Three of the five said yes.

And so I had my first three clients and it was that was where I started.

And one of the things I really I still have to remind myself of this, especially now that I'm not a beginner anymore.

But there are so many things in running a business that I'm a beginner at.

Mhm.

And it's it's very hard, especially as high achievers for us to allow ourselves not to jump to.

Why am I not at the end and just take one step in the right direction.

Right.

Without knowing exactly how it's going to turn out.

But when we try to get to a specific destination, when we expect that specific destination without allowing ourselves to explore along the way, that's often where we derail ourselves.

Mhm.

And where a lot of stuckness happens because we're banging ourselves up against a false reality that we've created for ourselves of the shoulds.

Yes.

I mean, there were so many ideas I had before I started coaching that were entrepreneurial, that I talked myself out of, which is so, so many women do that.

I mean, they have these Whether it's for a job or just for joy, you know, they there's anybody has to make their job.

The thing that brings them joy.

That's not for everybody.

For some people, that's really what they want.

But we talk ourselves out of those things and what we're capable of.

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I think it was that I allowed myself to dip my toe in the water, and then I kept letting myself go.

One more step, one more step.

That's that's the best way.

And I love that you're sharing your journey on that piece, because I think it's so relevant for entrepreneurs as they.

Or just allowing for that curiosity, rather than banging against the shoulds of what the internet says you should have accomplished by X, Y, and Z goal because you have been in the game for a long time.

Like I'm very transparent that like, I have yet to hit my million dollar annual a year goal.

Like it's like I'm going for it, but it just hasn't been and not it's been consistently and not right now.

And it's probably because I've just decided to have a lot of babies along the way.

So that definitely would do it.

I mean, that's there's no way that's not affecting it, being able to surrender that and say like, hey, it's okay.

I've been raising beautiful, amazing children on the way.

And that's like part of what my journey is.

And they shape me to be a better business owner.

And simultaneously, my business is shaping me to be a better mom.

And that there's that beautiful dichotomy that like dance that happens.

I'd love to know to to like, flip gears for a second and pull behind the curtain of your business, of looking at your visibility strategy like as you've grown,

Visibility and Business Growth

what's really been working for you in your business and what hasn't?

It's so.

I am a phenomenal coach and I am not a phenomenal business mind.

So the business part of my business has been a huge learning curve.

You know, I'm not a strategist.

That's not my.

So, you know, there's so many places to learn and people to learn from and opinions.

And I think it's been it's definitely been challenging for me.

Um, and you know, in terms of what's working, I don't really know.

I mean, I've gotten better in terms of, like, content and LinkedIn, and I'm getting building some traction there.

Um, I, I've done a good handful, maybe ten podcast interviews.

My ability to be consistent in making that a priority, because I really prefer talking to people and having conversations to writing content.

It's just for me, I feel like I'm writing into a void versus getting to have a conversation with you.

Um, so there's a couple things I've done.

I mean, I haven't figured out yet what works when I'm pitching a podcast and like, why do some people love me and or choose me, not love me?

But why do they choose me and why do they not?

I don't know.

Um.

I.

I did spend less.

So one of the things I'm really interested in doing in terms of visibility is speaking on stages.

And I did spend, uh, seven months last year in a program to help me write and learn to perform a keynote speech.

So that process is beginning now.

Um, and it also helped me.

It helped me with podcasting as well.

It helped me to get really clear about, you know, the ways that I work and what I believe.

And so that I feel like I have a lot of things that are ready to get out there.

But I can't tell you that I feel super great about how I'm getting out there or why I don't.

Do I have a way like us the steps to do it?

Yes.

Do I know?

Do I have a strategy behind it?

I do not, I first of all, thank you so much for your transparency, because I think that this is something that a lot of business owners who have yet to reach that six figure mark think that suddenly once you hit six figures, like everything's all figured out for you, it's like, no, it's not like there are new problems, that every new level of discovery that you get to be a beginner at.

Again, it's a circle back to that beginner's mentality.

And so it's like visibility is one of them running a business, managing finances and opex and cash flow, like all of those pieces are all different things.

Once you learn how to master the revenue part and you're able to successfully generate sales, then these new problems and new hats get to open up where it's like, oh, I now get to think about my visibility strategy and like, what does that mean?

And then opex and cash flow, which is a fun one as well.

Um.

Believe me.

Oh, it was I think one of the greatest myths was I was in a I've been in this group called The Dames for, uh, for 4 or 5 years now, and, uh, it's for six, seven and eight figure businesswoman.

And I walk into this, uh, the fund, their annual conference, and I'm at the most boring session of all, which is like bookkeeping in HR.

And everyone else wanted to go to the sexy one, the marketing and the PR and, like, visibility.

And I'm there in every single business owner is sharing the same story.

And this is like all different levels.

And it's just it was so beautiful.

The conversation, which is why I love that you are so transparent with pulling back the curtain and sharing that, you know, there are pieces of being a business owner that you don't have yet, and that's okay.

Yeah.

I mean, talk about I wish somebody I wish there had been some big blaring someone somewhere on Instagram saying, I can tell you how to set up the finances of your business from the beginning because no one tells you, and then you have to go back and clean it all up.

And and same with your marketing strategy, because what worked for you then to generate your first few clients, it it can work consistently, but as you want to scale to another level like visibility marketing, those all have different strategies depending upon the level that you're at.

So when you look at what's I mean, what what lit you up was what was speaking, it sounded like.

And having those one on one conversations.

Yeah.

Speaking and Podcasting Strategy

What is it about your message that really lands or that you've noticed just in the ten interviews that you've had on podcasts that you see?

Because the thing I love about podcasts is that you get like an immediate feedback because you have one audience member who is the podcast host.

What have you noticed really lands and resonates with your messaging?

That's such a great question.

Um, and it's making me realize I haven't.

I mean, I get so immersed in.

I just loved to chat with people that I haven't really thought about that.

Kimberly, I but I, I mean, I think there's always a connection to women and the, the struggles that in particular that women tend to have.

Although I will tell you, as I've given my speech, some of the things that I have sort of, you know, said these are specific to women.

I have had men come up to me afterwards and say to me, this pertains to me, too.

The impostor syndrome, the identification of values, the feeling like you need to lead, like the person that came before you, rather than digging into yourself to discover who you want to be as a leader.

So those messages seem to be more universal than I thought.

Now.

You know, there are different.

There are different struggles that men and women have to contend with.

And our society is built for men.

But that doesn't mean that there still isn't messaging and pressures and ways that men feel like they can't show up in the same way that women feel.

So, um, I think the big thing is really the big message that I really come back to.

Time and time again, there's a few, but my big message is that we have been told to focus so much on what we need to do to get to where we want to go.

Right.

We focus on the productivity and what are the things we're doing and proving ourselves.

We forget who we want to be as human beings, as leaders.

How do we want to show up?

You can do those things and still be true to yourself and the way you do them.

And so that's why so many women kind of get to the top and look around and go, who am like, how did I even get here?

Because they're not owning who they want to be in the process.

And I think that's the thing that tends, you know, I there's a line I, I have that is we have been working from the outside in rather than the inside out.

Mhm.

And that often gets a big oof.

You know, um so there's that.

And then there's also one of the things that I talk about is that I think there are different levels of imposter syndrome.

And.

When you get it, when you're first going into something new to me or wanting to try something new, it's a sign you're on the right track.

And that's another one that people really love and resonate with quite a bit.

Oh yeah, I love that because, um, that when you learn to flip and reframe imposter syndrome is a signal of like, you're actually entering into the right rooms, you're actually choosing to play bigger.

Yes.

Game changer.

I'm curious because from a marketing standpoint, I've seen this so often with especially coaches who have a niche of like, here's my niche.

And then it's like, but there's other people who like then who are like, but that applies to me, to whoever turned down having a male client who's like, oh, I work with men.

No, I have men.

I totally work with men.

But it is interesting because, I mean, this is this is I had dinner with a very good friend the other night who is, um, a very Well-established marketing executive.

And he said to me, he said, can I give you some feedback?

And I really respect and trust this guy.

And he said, you know, sometimes it feels like I want to be included.

And some of the things you're saying, and sometimes it feels like you get so pro-woman that you're turning me away.

And that was just something for me to look at and go, because I and I feel strongly and there are so many.

Well, you know, we have to fight so hard right now for so much.

But at the same time, the changes that need to happen to our society, we need the men to do it too.

And so it really got me thinking, and I haven't come up with any.

I haven't come up with anything.

But it did get me thinking and know if if it was a man that I connected with and we, you know.

Absolutely.

I love working with men.

Um, I just found when I started working, um, with clients.

I can get there with women.

Like women were so willing to go there so quickly in a way that my initial male clients that I had, I had a harder time with.

I have not found that now that I'm older, so that may have been my experience.

It may have been my ability to connect with women in a different way that I could connect with men.

Um, but I mostly work with women.

But I love the men I work with, and I will.

I'll always talk to a male client.

I think that that's that's such an unnecessary marketing point that people who, especially those who are starting out in business because we're the riches are in the niches like we it's the marketing 101 and whatnot.

And so we market to a certain category of person, but it doesn't mean that you're going to be turning away the the ones who are like, I still resonate because ultimately who you resonate with is based on values, not necessarily based on just, you know, their gender or certain demographic information.

And that's the biggest difference when when you leading with values in your marketing.

And I can tell that you've done that simply because you're attracting both genders, even though your primary marketing is to high achieving women.

You know, someone once said to me pretty early on when I was panicked about the whole idea of niching down.

Yeah.

Um, they said, listen, the more specific you are, the more other people will come to you because you'll be specific enough in the way you're speaking that it will attract people that are outside of your niche, but that still relate to that.

So, you know, and I, I try to take that to heart.

But that conversation with my friend was really interesting because I, you know, I'm like I said, I'm still kind of swirling it around my head.

And what is if I, if part of what's important to me in my life is to help shift the conversation around leadership, which involves changing the whole conversation around the patriarchal systems that we live by.

Women cannot do that alone.

They cannot do that without men.

Men need to be involved in that.

And so it just got me going.

It got me thinking like, oh, there's something there for me to dig into a little bit more.

I would be very curious as to leveraging that as a tester strategy to go out on podcasts that are male based with an ideal audience.

Interesting, because then you're bringing them into the conversation and simultaneously demonstrating by your own example as a woman who is a leader, what those principles are and what that could look like, and you're opening men up to having that conversation.

I love that.

You know, one of the kind of tenets of the work I do is

Masculine vs Feminine Energy

I call my style of leadership the art of compassionate command.

And the there's a lot of talk about feminine and masculine energy.

And I think it becomes very hard when we tell people, and this is whoever, whoever came up with this premise, um, says feminine and masculine energy are not aligned with your sex.

And that's that is true.

We all contain feminine and masculine energy, but it's very hard for us to relate to that.

And so men are afraid to embrace their feminine energy.

And women are also sometimes afraid to embrace their feminine energy because of what they've seen in the workplace.

And so I kind of took those two paradigms and changed it into compassion and command.

And so it's the idea of it's the yin and the yang.

Right?

It's the Shiva and the Shakti.

It all comes from that eastern philosophy that and I'm not a big believer in balance in our life.

I think it's more about intention.

But in this, you know, in this model, it is about the balance of the masculine and the feminine, the compassion and the command.

And so that that messaging is super important for both men and women to be able to find the elements from both energies that you can really lean into to bring a more well-rounded self, because men tend to lean into the command and women are afraid to lean into compassion too much for being, you know, fear.

And men are too.

Everyone's afraid of being called, you know, overly sensitive to emotional.

These things are superpowers, and they're what they are.

The feminine energy is emotional intelligence.

It is the it is necessary for leadership in our world.

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You get so fired up about that.

Is that one of your podcast points for people?

Do talk about it?

Yes, it is one of my podcast points.

I think also, you know, I haven't done a podcast interview, I don't think since I finished my keynote working on my keynote, and I think I'm so much clearer about my personal system, the steps, you know, the, the the ways in which I work with clients to help to get them into their full sense of self as a leader.

Um, and so I think I'm speaking I can feel it.

I'm speaking about it in a different way, having, You know, gone deeper into that work and gotten super, super clear about the messaging that's important for me to put out in the world.

Yeah, because I would say if you started going on podcasts with that level of certainty that you've cultivated through, you know, becoming a keynote speaker and honing and refining that keynote.

Mhm.

That's that's the practice.

And it's like what I say is getting in your reps, whether it's going on multiple podcast interviews and kind of figuring it out as you go or diving deep into a program like you did.

Either way, you're getting in the reps of seeing what's really landing both for you and for the audience.

Mhm.

And so now that you have that clarity, I think one I would find it interesting what it the response for women and what I would test is like the response for female based leadership podcasts and the response for male based leadership podcasts.

I actually could see you most highly likely drawing in a stronger male crowd, even just because of how you message and how you have this beautiful dance and balance of the masculine and feminine energy.

Fascinating.

Really interesting.

Like

Authenticity and Values in Leadership

when you see the posts that are landing with your audience, what really lands and resonates?

What are you feeling really translating?

Into their world.

Um, there's a few things.

Um, I think the, the messaging of, um, you know, when we talk so much about values, but, like, what does that actually really mean?

And getting some real clarity around distinguishing how to identify your values and then how to access and assess how much are you actually living that value in your life, both in the in what you're giving into the world and what you're receiving?

Because to me, that's that is like the answer.

It's that's where you start with what's not working for you and that becomes your compass.

And so when I talk about that people and that the difference between, you know, there's so many things that people talk about today transparency, authenticity, values, you know, bring your full self to work.

By the way, I totally disagree with that.

But, um, but there's like these things that have become so cliched to say they don't even have any meaning anymore.

I mean, to me, authenticity is a very important thing, but what authenticity means to me and what authenticity means to you or someone else out there could be totally different.

So to say, be authentic.

Well, you can tell me that.

And we can look it up in the Webster's Dictionary.

But you have to define what a value means to you.

And how do you like and what does that look like to live that value in every aspect of your life.

So that's one thing that people, um, relate to.

My story is something people relate to.

Um, uh, you know, kind of.

Discovering that I was I was I was on the way up, going the way I wanted to.

And, um, I haven't shared this.

I got three promotions in like a three year period.

And then four months after my last promotion, I got laid off while I was eight months pregnant.

Oh, and I was devastated.

And and people wanted me to sue and I was like, but it's out.

It was totally for the best because I was not showing up at that job as the person that I wanted to be.

And I had made like there were things I learned along the way that I where I'd made promises to myself, I'm never going to do that.

And three years later, I was sitting there doing that, and I was, I, I had that feeling inside, that empty feeling of like, it's this all there is.

Except I was doing the thing I said I was going to do.

You know, I was climbing a ladder as an entertainment executive, and I was going to get to wherever that golden, you know, palace was going to be.

And if I'd gotten there, I still would have found myself going, really?

Is this how it's supposed to be?

Is this how this is supposed to feel?

And so I now can look back many, many years later and say, oh, the universe, like, was telling me this is not how it's supposed to be, because I don't know how long it's so hard for us to leave those things.

Um, we have a good job.

We, you know, we're checking off all the boxes.

It's impressive to people on the outside.

You work with this person, you know you're doing this.

It doesn't matter if you are unhappy, you know?

Um.

And so.

That resonates for a lot of people.

I completely can see that.

When you have the fire, when you talk about your story and really highlighting the the bifurcation of career success with first versus personal happiness, as well as you've got some fiery, polarizing perspectives that I do when you lean into those, like even more, it's going to create more audacity in your marketing, which will make those hell yes, people who are like, oh my God, who is this queen?

Like, I gotta be around her because they're either going to love it or they're going to hate it.

But the polar I love the polarizing perspective that a lot of people don't think is polarizing, but polarizing in if we want this patriarchal standard to be shifted, we also need men to come on our side.

We need men to be a part of this transition into us being able to have union instead of masculine dominated.

Yes.

And also, to be clear, I don't think it should be all feminine either.

Right, exactly.

The yin and the yang, they it's it's it's there is what.

And when you see a company that works really, really well, there is more of that shared energy and shared leadership.

Um, but but women can't get those seats at the table.

And another really fascinating thing, I think I heard Malcolm Gladwell talk about this on Glennon Doyle's podcast.

He was talking about how when the one there's one woman who joins the boardroom table, the men don't pay attention.

They're dismissive.

They don't listen when it's two, it's still you.

They have to really fight.

There's when it's three, they start to pay attention.

And so I guess my like.

At the end of the day, the most important thing to me is to get more of those women at the table.

It's not.

And I guess in the process of getting the women at the table, you're taking some men away.

Right.

That is true.

But.

Oh, well, I don't know what to say about that.

Or are you just expanding the size of the table?

Perhaps that's possible.

That could be another possibility.

But I think that that that polarizing perspective of being able to have a union, rather than it being swinging the pendulum from just pure masculine into pure feminine, because in pure feminine, then there's no structure.

So we need both.

And it's never it's never that black and white.

Yeah.

I shouldn't say never.

Very rarely.

There are certain rhymes and things that happen that are pretty black and white, but very few things in life are that black and white.

And most of the time it's lies much more in the gray.

Um, and that's the mix of the two.

It's never one or the other.

I think as you lean into more of this, like fire and audacity in your marketing and also in your in your podcast pitches, you're going to see a greater response.

Interest as well.

Cool.

Especially, I would also say I can see men being drawn to your work simply because of it.

Sounds like inclusivity is a value of yours, and that thus includes men being at the table even though you're not supposed to.

You're working to raise women to be able to be at that table in a harmonious, balanced like balanced, harmonious way so that they're there at the table because they want to be in their fulfilled, to be at that table, not just because it was another ladder that they had to, like, climb to suddenly be at.

That's right, that's right.

So, Michel, I'd love to know,

Final Reflections and Takeaways

what did you love about our conversation today?

Um, it was super fun.

Um, I love that you dug into that perspective with the, you know, with bringing this to male driven podcasts.

I think that's really interesting.

And I never, ever would have thought about that at all.

Um, so that is my real like, I'm, I'm really that's got my wheels spinning, you know.

Um, and, um, I appreciate how much you acknowledged certain things about me and kind of highlighted those.

That was pretty cool.

To to to be seen in that way is always a lovely thing.

Amazing I would say also.

And I say this about the male podcasters because you going on female podcasts about leadership.

There can be connotations of competition of that.

There is, you know, your female coach if you go on other female coaches podcast, but by going on a male's podcast, there's not the competition that's there because you're not marketing to your you're marketing your message.

Your client is also high achieving women.

So your message will attract those women who like to listen to male male podcasts, because sometimes male podcasts can provide.

There's just that reassuring male presence of some sort, and there's something there are.

This isn't always true, but there are times where, um, you know, I don't I'm sure you've maybe you've seen this quote that's going around, but that, um, leadership books geared towards men are in the leadership section and leadership books geared towards women are in the personal development session section.

Mhm.

And so when you think about that then women should go to the frickin male male section.

Yeah.

Right.

Don't let that just be for men.

Um, so that's also like, that's what popped up for me when you said that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I think that's incredibly powerful for women, especially authors to know.

And that if you leverage going into that, those other spaces, those more male dominated spaces, which it seems like you're very comfortable going into anyways, especially having been your background in entertainment.

Um, that being in those spaces, you will attract the women also that are in those spaces that are naturally high achieving, and they already know to go to the male section because those are the leadership podcasts that they need to get to to get to that next level.

Interesting.

Really interesting.

Great.

You've given me a lot to think about.

Amazing.

Michelle, where can we find you?

How can we work with you?

How can the high achieving leaders redefine that success for themselves?

Because we all need it.

We all need that.

So you can find me on my website is michelle.com.

And you can find me on both Instagram and LinkedIn.

Um, where I post pretty regularly, um, insights, snippets, sometimes rants.

Um, and I've actually been going live a bit more this year, so that's kind of fun.

Um, and and um.

And then I have I.

I email my newsletter every week.

See, this is something I'm really bad at.

Kimberly.

I don't think I should have said like, this is something I have.

Um, but you can get on my email list with I have a freebie, which is, um, all about the power of saying no.

Um, because that is something that is very challenging for a lot of women.

Uh, some of the most powerful women I know still struggle to say no.

Um, so there's that's I have a guide to help you kind of navigate that a little bit more.

And also a part of it is to understand why that's so challenging for us because it's historical.

And so sometimes when you understand the why behind things, it starts to make it easier to shift it.

Um, so that's where you can find me and the ways I work both.

I work with a limited number of one on one clients, and I also do a small group program, because one of the things that I've really found is how powerful it is for women to have these conversations in community.

Yes.

Um, because women tend to hide a lot of this stuff.

They don't want other people to know.

And then when they hear how similar everybody feels and the situations they have are and they can learn from each other, it's so empowering.

So I also do small group coaching and in a small group program.

Amazing, Michelle.

Yes, I highly recommend getting into groups of women and community.

Like I shared earlier with the going into the conference room with a table full of women, and we all were looking at cash flow and opex from different perspectives.

It makes you feel like, Holy moly, I am not alone in this journey, and that is such a place of comfort because then we can grow and expand from that awareness and resource from each other.

And women were made to be in community.

We're like, that is our one of our superpowers.

So go follow Michelle, get on her newsletter list, jump into her freebie and learn the power of saying no, because you will find podcasts that you will have to say a hard no to.

And then.

And you'll also find podcasts that you'll get to say a hard yes to.

So know what your know is.

And as always, my fellow communication queens, let your voice be heard.

Queen, if what you just heard.

Stirred something in you.

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Your story.

Your genius could be positioned with the same clarity and magnetism than its time.

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