Enjoy this episode & transcript below where Kimberly Spencer, Master NLP Mindset & Communications Coach and CEO of Communication Queens, interviews podcaster, Verity Sangan.

In this episode of the Communication Queens podcast, Kimberly Spencer and Verity Mansfield dive into the world of podcasting with infectious enthusiasm. They discuss the joys and challenges of balancing parenting with podcasting, sharing personal anecdotes that highlight their authenticity and relatability. Verity recounts her journey into podcasting, emphasizing the unexpected success and connections she made. Both hosts stress the importance of authenticity over polished perfection, reflecting on how real-life interruptions, like kids or pets, can actually enhance the listener's experience. They also offer valuable insights into crafting standout podcast pitches, underscoring the need for genuine engagement and quality communication.

What you will learn from this episode…

• Challenges and joys of podcasting
• Personal anecdotes related to parenting and podcasting
• Building relationships within the podcasting community
• Approach to interviewing guests
• Importance of authenticity and relatability in podcasting
• Challenges of being a guest on new podcasts
• Significance of considering the long-term vision of a podcast
• Standing out in podcast pitches
• Need for authenticity and relatability in podcasting
• Intersection of parenting and podcasting

FYI Transcripts may contain a few typos. With many episodes lasting 30-minutes, it can be difficult to catch minor errors. Enjoy!

Listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Podcast Addict, Castbox, Amazon Music, iHeart Radio, Pandora, Youtube, or on your favorite podcast platform.

Verity Sangan (00:00:00) -  If you do a guest interview every single week, that's only 52 slots that a podcast has got in a year that's not actually that many. And you know, if you look at other podcasts, some podcasts will only do an interview every second episode or once a month. So you really got to make sure that you stand out, because you could be essentially vying for only 12 interviews throughout a whole year for certain podcasts. And I think people forget that sometimes as well when it comes to the quality of their pictures.

Kimberly Spencer (00:00:33) -  Welcome to the Communication Queens podcast for the visionary leaders, speakers, service providers and podcasters who are looking to stand out sharing their story. I'm your host, Kimberly Spencer, former screenwriter turned master communications coach. On this podcast, I'll be coaching you on how to share your own transformation story so that you increase your visibility, influence, and income on podcast interviews. Let's get your voice heard. Verity, you started your podcast.

Verity Sangan (00:01:02) -  After.

Kimberly Spencer (00:01:03) -  Having a baby. Yeah. Walk me through that decision.

Verity Sangan (00:01:08) -  Do you know what? This is gonna sound ridiculous, but I'm still not entirely sure what the decision was. I'll tell you the story for context and tell me if I'm babbling, but I feel like this story adds context to the whole crazy journey that has been the last few years. So it was just before Christmas a few years ago. I honestly forget which year it was now. It must have been like 20, 20, 21. Something like that. Anyway, I turned round to my husband and I've got no idea what I what purpose asked me in, you know, post-baby craziness. I said, I think I want to start a podcast. And he was like, great, I know what to get you for Christmas now. So we got my microphone, but I hadn't actually put any thought process into creating a podcast. It was just, I think I'm going to create a podcast, and this microphone sat on the desk for something like 3 or 4 months until I was like, I need to actually do something with this.

Verity Sangan (00:02:04) -  Like, it's a really nice gift and I've done nothing with this. And I just sat down one day and had the baby in the back. And so she was like four months old and I just started recording what I felt was waffle. And then I published some episodes and it kind of gained some traction and it kept going. And that podcast went for about 18 months until I was like, the conversation's been had moved on to the podcast that I've got now, but the whole thing was just a bit of a, I think, almost like, you know, you know what this is like, you've got kids, you know, when you've had kids and everything in your day is just around nappies, feed times, change time, school runs, all that kind of thing. And I just needed something where I was like, it's not the baby, it's not the housework. It's just something that is totally different and totally for me. And podcasting was just kind of there. It's the weirdest story and now it's just become a bit of a, I call it a hobby that's got out of control because all I do now is talk about podcasting.

Kimberly Spencer (00:03:10) -  I love it because, I mean, I'm the weirdo who has twins. I start a business with every baby that I have. So just I completely understand the desire of that mom desire where, you know, especially as infants like, you and I had a conversation prior, and I was like, the infant stage for me was actually really easy. Like, I was like, is there more to because they're they're not in an age where they can get into too much trouble, like they can't. They're not climbing up the staircase there. There's no conversation to be had. So it's very serene in a way that there's like, is there anything else to this?

Verity Sangan (00:03:52) -  And my second one was asleep. as well. So it was even more of a case of, well, I need to be doing something. So it was, I fell off a maternity leave, I suppose, and I just haven't stopped. Yeah.

Kimberly Spencer (00:04:06) -  So what is podcast brought you? What is it given to you?

Verity Sangan (00:04:10) -  This is going to sound so cheesy, but it's the connections I've got with people.

Verity Sangan (00:04:15) -  I have made some truly amazing friendships through podcasting and this one will make you laugh. I met a girl we saw. We ended up starting podcasting around the same time and we just. I don't even know how it was. Some kind of Instagram conversation or something slid into each other's DMs, and we have been chatting on zoom every week for the last like two and a half, three years. We're meeting up in person next month, and I am so excited. And it's just the most surreal thing. But I would honestly say it's the friendships. I have met so many amazing people. I mean, you're in the podcasting space. You know how amazing the podcasting community is. And I think it's just it's getting to know more people and just being able to share that passion of podcasting. And yeah, I really think it's just that connection.

Kimberly Spencer (00:05:09) -  So what were your are your most nosy, curious questions that you have asked or get asked on podcasts that you love answering or that you love asking?

Verity Sangan (00:05:20) -  I think the noisiest questions I probably ask other people are probably like the most forward questions in terms of I've had people who are like experts in their field on podcast episodes before, where I have just gone straight in for the jugular and be like, so how exactly do you do this? Like, I need your secret sauce right now, just tell me.

Verity Sangan (00:05:42) -  And I find that a lot of people are almost not very prepared for that. But I'm like, but that's what my audience wants. They want to know tips and tricks and, you know, insider kind of information. So, you know, if you're coming on and you're talking about, I don't know that you're an expert in selling on TikTok. I will be straight in and being like, so what exactly? Not that I interview people on TikTok, but it's not my brand. But you get my pride. In the case of, you know, exactly what strategy do you use? What kind of software do you use? How can you help people do this? And because I find a lot of people, they try out, you know, shift around a little bit. So I find that those are probably my noisiest questions as those how to kind of questions and the questions that I've got asked. To be honest with you, the curveball ones tend to be about where I'm from because I'm from Jersey and if not new Jersey, it's okay.

Verity Sangan (00:06:36) -  It's not new Jersey in the States. So a lot of people are like, but what is Jersey and is there electricity over there? And do they drive over there? And yeah, so those are probably the most curveball ones that I get about that I get asked.

Kimberly Spencer (00:06:51) -  I love that you go for the jugular because I do too. And I think that that's such a powerful question. And I think one of the biggest pet peeves that I see, and one of the challenges, especially with people who start going on podcasts, especially bigger guests, is when they hide those tips, tricks, strategies behind their program wall and or like, oh, you have to buy the book, or you have to buy the course. And what have you noticed as an industry expert, like as being the most valuable guest for since most of our audience are people who were wanting to guess more and who have done incredibly amazing accomplishments and who have great products, great programs. But for me, that's like my pet peeve as as a podcaster and an interviewer is like when you're hiding things constantly behind the book or the course, how do you pull or extract that information? When you notice a guest is kind of wanting to hide their info, or their best tips and tricks behind the course.

Verity Sangan (00:07:48) -  I love that I would say that most of the time I'm very choosy about who I have on my podcast. So if I have maybe listened to some episodes before and I've kind of got the vibe that actually the whole of the interview is just one massive sales pitch, then I'm not going to you're probably not going to be the kind of vibe for my podcast. I am very, very choosy, I have to say, but I find that the people who are just like, do you know what? I'm giving you the information here and I'm giving it to you for free. But if you buy my course or you buy my book, you're going to get the same information, but you're going to get it in a more succinct format, or in a 1 to 1 format, or in a delivery, which is maybe a bit more personalized to you. And those are the kind of people who I'm like, you are going to be an amazing guest. And also, I think those are the kinds of guests as well, that people end up wanting to buy the book or the course or whatever it is from because they're not feeling.

Verity Sangan (00:08:51) -  I mean, you know, what it's like, you know, when you listen to, like, an entire episode of something and then you're like, oh, you just want me to buy something? I was at a conference last year, and there was somebody on stage, and they were giving this really interesting talk all about whatever topic it was. And then after 45 minutes, it kind of the penny drops and you just watched the whole of the audience, because actually the entire thing was just a sales pitch into something that they, that their company was selling, and it just didn't sit right with the audience as opposed to people who had been in earlier in the day who were just giving away so much information for free. You're like, well, I actually want to go to your website now. I want to find out more about you, because if that's what you're giving away for free, what is your book, your course, your membership, whatever it is, what is that gonna gonna look like? So I would say I'm very choosy, and I tend to kind of search out people and hunt out people, and sometimes I just have to go with the I'm very sorry, but my content calendar is full and 99% of the time that is actually true.

Verity Sangan (00:09:59) -  But there is that very small percentage of the time where I'm like, I don't want you using my podcast is just advertising space 100%.

Kimberly Spencer (00:10:09) -  And I think, because I've been to those presentations before and those talks at conferences and things, and you're like, is there anything beyond the product that you're saying that we should buy in order to get the results that are, you know, marketed in the topic of the course. And I see the eye to see the reverse effect of like when you're so generous because and and I really think it comes down to a mindset piece ultimately because there's no way in a book that's 150 pages that you can cover all of that in a 30 minute or 1 hour podcast interview. There's just no way like the audiobook is not even going to cover that. And so I think that it really comes down to that abundance mindset of being the go giver, and especially more than any other medium, more than like social media, more than any other marketing medium, podcasting specifically because of the nature of the intimacy of the environment.

Kimberly Spencer (00:11:03) -  I mean, look at me and like I got my kid hanging out with me, an interview. We've all been there. Like every mom has been there, every single mom. he just literally the boys popped in for a podcast interview on like that. I was on, for that they have like over 150,000 monthly downloads. And the boys popped in and they, of course, dropped their new favorite words.

Verity Sangan (00:11:24) -  So but and they'll say, no, but they will be running their own podcast editing agency by the age of ten or something. Exactly.

Kimberly Spencer (00:11:32) -  I'm not I'm not surprised my six year old wants to start a podcast. So I think, I think there is.

Verity Sangan (00:11:36) -  My nine year olds. Maybe they should have a yard they could buddy up.

Kimberly Spencer (00:11:40) -  Do they want to just your nine year old want to interview astronomers and rocket scientist? Yes. No way. Yes.

Verity Sangan (00:11:47) -  She wants to be an astronaut. So does.

Kimberly Spencer (00:11:49) -  My son. This is exactly the demonstration of the podcasting. Definitely, because it really comes from collaboration.

Kimberly Spencer (00:11:59) -  And the attitude. Collaboration stems from abundance, not just from a scarcity. Thinking of like just trying to make the next buck or trying to sell your course or your book. So have you ever thrown a podcast episode out because someone was too pitchy?

Verity Sangan (00:12:14) -  Am I allowed to say no?

Kimberly Spencer (00:12:16) -  No.

Verity Sangan (00:12:20) -  Well, no, because they were so pitchy. Well, they sort of were, but it was. Oh, God, how can I kind of say this, that basically the whole tone of the conversation just took this direction, which we had not previously discussed. It was not what the episode was about. And it didn't matter how many times I tried to bring it back to the main point of what we were going to. It just kept going. So off tangent and I got to the point. I ended up speaking to one of my friends about it. I was like, I can't put this episode out because I said it's not. It is just so worlds away from my brand, from what my audience has come to expect from this podcast, that I was like, I can't put it out.

Verity Sangan (00:13:04) -  And it was such a moral dilemma because I'm a people pleaser at the end of the day, and all I could think was, oh, they'd given up their time for this interview, but it just yeah, there were tech issues. Let's just say there were tax issues.

Kimberly Spencer (00:13:19) -  That sounds.

Verity Sangan (00:13:20) -  Awful. Now, everybody who's ever been on my podcast now is going to be like, oh, was that me?

Kimberly Spencer (00:13:24) -  And was that me? Yeah, well, I think I think so many people, like, especially if you go on a lot of podcasts, like there are so many podcasts that I've been on that if it wasn't for my team, having followed up with every podcast that we go on or that our clients go on, we wouldn't know which ones get distributed because quite frankly, like some podcasters, they just get pod fade and they end up not distributing your episode. It's not necessarily just because, you know, your episodes sucked or you were too pitchy. It can sometimes be because they just got pod fade and just burn out.

Verity Sangan (00:13:56) -  Definitely. And I think that's a really important thing to consider is when you know anyone who's listening to this episode now and is thinking, oh, I really want to go on different podcasts, is really considering to yourself, is that podcast proven enough to be on? So I went on a podcast a couple of hours ago, actually, and I just realized that if these come out at the same kind of time, everyone's going to be like, why is she wearing exactly the same thing? There we go. That is why. Because I'm recording them in the same day. But the podcast that I went on earlier, it was the first episode that this particular podcast has ever done. And ordinarily I would be like, no, no, no, because you and I are the same mind on this completely, that they need to be proven. They need to have, you know, consistent episodes coming out, reviews, all, you know, the whole shebang. But this was the very first episode.

Verity Sangan (00:14:50) -  And do you know what the reason I said yes is? Because both of the hosts have both got their own podcasts, which have been going for a very, very long time long, and they have essentially just teamed up to do I think it's like their fourth podcast or something. But the point was, is that ordinarily I'd be like, no first podcast, first episode. No, this isn't going to happen, but they have the track record from other podcasts. So I think that that's also another important thing is that if you are going on a brand new podcast, yes, there is so much opportunity to be heard from that because, you know, so many people will go back to episode one. But as you said, if people go into Pod Fade and the podcast only lasts about three episodes, eight episodes, Then is anybody actually get you know, you've put in a lot of time and effort into guesting on that and your your message is potentially not getting out to, to anybody. So it's a tricky one.

Verity Sangan (00:15:44) -  I'm not saying don't guest on any new podcast, but go in with a mindset of how you know, what is the long term vision for the podcast that I'm guesting on? I think would probably be the takeaway from that.

Kimberly Spencer (00:15:56) -  100%, because I too, you know, we have a very specific vetting process that if you want to learn our vetting process, go to episode two. As far as just the basic or basic requirements. But beyond that vetting process, like there are very few, there are occasionally times that I will go on a first time podcast. And like you, I make sure that they're either a seasoned podcaster or a seasoned business owner like my my friend Lindsey Epperly. She launched her podcast, Who Made You the Boss? She's built a huge multi-million dollar travel agency, and she had Amy Porterfield on as her first guest. Like, wow, she's. Can you please put that down, my love? Not only do we have poopy. Hold on just a second. Let me just get my husband.

Verity Sangan (00:16:42) -  You're absolutely fine.

Kimberly Spencer (00:16:43) -  Don't worry. For your patience. it's surprising. All right. We've I know enough. We've all been there. It's the first time I've had a put, like someone to put on my podcast. So that's. It's a win.

Verity Sangan (00:16:53) -  Take it as a win. I don't know. Tweet about that or Instagram story about that is a relatable moment if ever. That was one. I think the first time I'm trying to think when my first podcast was out, this was the one I did in Matlab. So it was called the confidence CEO. And the I had one of my first guests on, and I was super nervous because I was really excited to interview this girl. She's called Crystal and she's incredible. She's got a podcast called She Calls Her Shots, and she is a seasoned photographer and really, really crazy knowledgeable about business and business mindset and things. So I was having her on my podcast super excited, and I had I was prepared in my mind. I had everything cracked.

Verity Sangan (00:17:42) -  It was beautiful. And then I just kind of sniffed the air. And the baby who was in the baby bouncer. Yeah, you can just just imagine the end of that sentence. And I because she was like, well, four months old, something like that. And I was there scrambling track because it wasn't one that could, you know, it had to be cleaned up. You know, the kind that I guess. And so I was there cleaning. It makes me sound like I wouldn't clean up my child. That's not what I meant. But you know what I mean. Parents out there understand what I mean by that. Yes. And I just, I, you know, had to fully clean her up. And I was there one handedly trying to clean her up one hand, literally trying to like desperately DM Christa and being like, I am so sorry, but my child has just like exploded in front of me and I am like logging on. Just give me five minutes. And I thought, she is going to think that I'm just I've just not got anything together, let alone well.

Verity Sangan (00:18:38) -  Anyway, two years later she still talks to me, which is lovely. And again, another beautiful friendship that came out of podcasting. But yes, I will never forget the first time that I properly spoke to her and I was like, I'm so sorry my child. It's just like I said, exploded everywhere and you're just going to have to wait ten minutes because she cannot.

Kimberly Spencer (00:18:58) -  Yeah, yeah. And I. Every parent out there understands that moment of like, could I wait 20 minutes?

Verity Sangan (00:19:07) -  Yeah.

Kimberly Spencer (00:19:08) -  Like I had, what, before one podcast? nine minutes before, I was like getting ready. I was all ready to to go on this one podcast interview and our goat gives birth. And so I like normally with a, you know, animals giving birth, you don't really have to do much. But because we have a donkey who gets very tribal, you want to separate the babies so the donkey doesn't trample the babies. And so it was the first experience in our new home with, like, our small farm that we had just kind of that came with the home.

Kimberly Spencer (00:19:41) -  that I was like, gonna run and, like, saved the goat. So I saved the goats, moved in with my husband, and then ran back and was only two minutes late for the podcast interview.

Verity Sangan (00:19:52) -  I don't know if that, though, because that sounds like, you know, when you'd go to school and say, the dog ate my homework. Well, the goats just given birth. It sounds like that kind of thing, doesn't it? Like it's really, really like.

Kimberly Spencer (00:20:04) -  Yeah, yeah, it really does. Like one time I had to stop a podcast interview because my two year old was running out to go pat the donkey, and I was like, no, no, no, because the donkey could like donkey. It's dated. But yeah, I mean, sometimes will stick his hands through the gate. gear, and I didn't want the donkey to bite his hand.

Verity Sangan (00:20:21) -  Because I don't like that he has like.

Kimberly Spencer (00:20:22) -  Carrots or apples. So, yes. Like and I remember the podcast and you're like, wait, I'm sorry, you're just in donkey like, which is great because it does provide for a level of relatability and authenticity, something that's weird and different and that actually meets memorability and relatability, like every parent relate to those moments of just the poopy diaper explosion.

Verity Sangan (00:20:47) -  Absolutely. And I think it's a really crucial thing to talk about as well, because I think that there are so many amazing women. Obviously, there's a load of amazing men in podcasting as well, but I think there's a load of amazing women who have the potential to have podcasts but don't because they're like, but what if the kids run in? And what if this happens? And, you know, I've got the kids and actually, do you know what I my podcast works around the kids, your podcast works around the kids. And at the end of the day, nobody actually minds if the kids. I don't know if this hit the Global News, but there was during the pandemic, there was, I don't know, some kind of ministry pass and parliament passed and somebody very, very important in government who in the UK, who was being interviewed for one of the national news stations. And he's there like, you know, really serious suit, probably still had his pajamas on the bottom half, but, you know, suit on.

Verity Sangan (00:21:46) -  It was all very serious talk about the pandemic and, you know, all that terrible things that were happening at that time. And as if by magic, the office door behind him opened up. And this baby and this four Wheeler just comes in and the nanny literally, like, throws herself across the floor to drag him out.

Kimberly Spencer (00:22:04) -  Then, like.

Verity Sangan (00:22:04) -  The little baby out and this little like five second clip just went. It was everywhere, all over the news and like, nobody knew what the heck this bloke was actually on the news to talk about. Everybody was just like, hey, he's got his kids at home, just like me. Well, do you know what? We don't feel so bad now when our kids come into zoom meetings with us and it breaks it down and just remembers that, you know, reminds everybody that we're all just human at the end of the day. And I think there's almost this movement. I don't know if you've seen it, but I feel like there's almost a bit of a movement where, you know, polished perfection, you know, particularly for indie podcasters.

Verity Sangan (00:22:42) -  it just doesn't really need to be a thing. Nobody's coming for the, you know, the most highly edited things. And it's like you said, it's the relatability of it that I think people enjoy more. Maybe I'm wrong, but.

Kimberly Spencer (00:22:59) -  There is a great podcast network of women called the, the SWE Entrepreneur Network, and they don't edit their podcast. Like that's one of the rules. And I've heard from multiple podcasters, indie podcasters especially, that are like, yeah, I've had my audience be like, where's where's the unedited version? Like, it's nice to feel like it's almost like the reality TV that we no longer really have because we now have Netflix. And so it's like you get to hear that backstage, you know, peek into people's actual lives. And that did I remember that story because it did make international news and it did because I was living in Australia at the time. And I saw it on the news of the gym, and I was like, that's so cool. My kids do that too.

Kimberly Spencer (00:23:43) -  And I'm genuinely think that if someone who has a serious or significant problem, then great, because they just weeded themselves out of my world. Like, I think we can all do with giving each other a little bit of grace. Like there is a line of professionalism of like showing up. Send a message if you've got to change a dirty nappy right before. But ultimately there is a line of grace because we are. I think the pandemic was great, and the fact that it blew up the boxes of like, here's my workbox and then here's my home life box. And it's like, no, we're all holistic human beings. We all have, you know, lives and or cats or kids or kids or dogs or something else in, in our world that is impacting how we show up and when we can honor that and come from a place of true authenticity. It takes people off the pedestal. Which is great because when you're on a pedestal, it really, really sucks. Like it's because it's very easy to get knocked down.

Kimberly Spencer (00:24:43) -  And it reminds me of this time back in like 2013. Do you remember when, like, Jennifer Lawrence and Anne Hathaway were both like on the scene going for their Oscars? Yes. Was that scene it was like 2013 and oh, I know it's ages, you know, ages ago. And Jennifer Lawrence was getting all this praise because she was like, I'm eating McDonald's out of the limo and flipping off the paparazzi. And Anne Hathaway got super. She just got attacked by the press. And there was actually like a 1.3 million. I Google searched it because I am writing my book for Make every Podcast Want You about this perfection paradigm. And there was actually a search for Anne Hathaway annoying that had like 1.3 million hits on it because her PR team. I'm going to assume it's her PR team. I don't know her personally, but it was positioning her as like, here is this poised, perfect Academy Award winning actress. And people were eating this, reading her online and seeing that it's because our subconscious minds like we know her, not perfect.

Kimberly Spencer (00:25:49) -  And so when we see someone who's posturing or positioned or whose teams are even positioning them as being perfect, then we distrust that naturally. That's why people gravitate to the Kardashians, because we see their flaws, at least with all the flaws they want us to see on their show. And they, they, they are aware of that paradigm.

Verity Sangan (00:26:12) -  Yeah. No, absolutely. I think you're so, so right. And I think it's it's interesting, isn't it? Because when you were saying about reality TV as well, because back in the day, reality TV was just so scripted, wasn't it. And yes, okay, there is a lot of scripting still to reality TV, but you know, like you said, even the stuff you see on Netflix now, it's much more raw. And there's, you know, there's this real rise, isn't there? You know, there's so many new and up and coming artists and people creating so much content and so many different multitudes, which is just much more real.

Verity Sangan (00:26:49) -  And I think that's what I love about podcasting. So she said, it's just this peek into somebodys into somebody's day, into somebody's life. And I actually I love the fact that you're saying there's so many people, but I very, very rarely edit my episodes and I will add it because sometimes I'll be chatting along and I'll go, you know, I've just lost my train of thought completely. And then they'll just be a five minute silence where I have to, you know, kind of think, where am I? What am I doing? What was I making is that I'll edit out. But by and large, I don't bother with things. I have the catwalk in the other day and start meowing, and I just turned around and I said, look, I'm really sorry, but the cat's here and you're just gonna have to live with that, basically, because that's that's just how this episode is rolling for today, and I do. I just think it's it's nice. I mean, I was listening to a podcast just the other day and it's, oh, it's huge over here.

Verity Sangan (00:27:42) -  Absolutely. what's it called? The rest is history. It's a huge, huge history podcast. And I was listening to it and it's got so many plosives in it because of how they're sitting with the microphone. But I was like, do you know what? I don't really care because it's the content that I want, not how polished they the output is.

Kimberly Spencer (00:28:01) -  100% and I love that you brought just are bringing such authenticity. And I'm wondering do you think that there ever as a tipping point like there's a tipping point with perfectionism with it being you know, everything's so polished and perfect, But do you think that there is a pendulum swing in the reverse, where there's a tipping point where there's actually too much authenticity, where there's too much rawness, realness, or expression?

Verity Sangan (00:28:27) -  I think that's a really interesting question. And I would say, I think it probably depends on you and depends on your podcast audience. So for me, I would say that there's probably too much authenticity if you're editing is just so you know, say it's obvious that you stood in the middle of town with like the worst quality microphone ever, and you've tried to interview people and all you can hear is like the wind and all this kind of thing.

Verity Sangan (00:28:55) -  That for me is a bit too much authenticity, because I don't want to feel like I'm stuck in a wind tunnel or something listening to you, because I can, you know, watch the news or just go outside myself for that. So I feel like that might be it. I feel as well that there are as if you're trying to kind of maybe if you're going through something and you haven't fully dealt with that, and you were then interviewing people around a certain subject, that could be quite challenging, maybe to listen to, I don't know, I think it's I think it's difficult because I think sometimes I guess what I'm saying is that if you are using almost like your podcast as therapy and your audience aren't prepared for that, that could be a bit too authentic for some listeners. But then I guess you could get around that in terms of like a disclaimer or something, but because you know how people back in the day used to do blogging like that, and you and blogging can be the very therapeutic.

Verity Sangan (00:29:56) -  And I'm sure there's a lot of people who do use podcasts for therapy and what have you for a whole multitude of things, but I think it needs to sit right with you and with your audience and make sure that there's nothing wrong with being vulnerable. But I think that you don't want to make yourself so vulnerable that actually you're opening yourself up to potential other issues, if that makes sense. You know, if you maybe haven't dealt with something that you're talking about and then people approach you, ask questions, leave comments online, even if it's coming from a good place. If you haven't dealt with something that could, you know, potentially trigger you to go into a different path or what have you. So I would say that I think you could pendulum swing either from like an editing quality point of view or the content. But as I said, I think a lot of it just depends on your, your audience. Because I do think the thing that I always say to people is that there are 7 billion people on this planet.

Verity Sangan (00:30:54) -  There will be at least one person who will listen to your podcast and will like your podcast.

Kimberly Spencer (00:31:00) -  It's true. I mean, even when you're just starting out. I remember I was coaching a podcaster a few years ago and she was like, oh, only like 50 people are listening to my podcast. I was like, have you been in a room with 50 people? You're literally teaching a micro workshop every single week, exactly the same people, 50 people.

Verity Sangan (00:31:17) -  In her living room? Probably not. Would you get 50 people in her kitchen? Probably not. That's amazing.

Kimberly Spencer (00:31:23) -  Yeah, that to people is extraordinary. And so being and it actually puts you on the top 50% in podcast life. And so when we think of these metrics, I think we sometimes lose sight of like with the big giant social numbers and as a podcast or someone who books people on podcasts, you know, with our company, like one of the things I see people defaulting to is like, oh, let's check if this, this potential guest has the right size and social numbers.

Kimberly Spencer (00:31:51) -  Have you seen a direct translation from your social numbers, from your podcasts, or from your guests going on a podcast and building up your social numbers? Because I've spoken to several podcast producers who manage multiple podcasts, and so far I, I've yet to see that there's a correlation between the social media audience and the podcasting audience.

Verity Sangan (00:32:11) -  I love this question so much because in my personal experience, I have found that it is the guests with the smaller social media followings that do better for their guest episodes. I've only had one person who that has not been the norm or like the rule for, but I would say that in my experience, I've had a couple of guests on who have got like tens of thousands followers on just one flat floor, one platform. I can't talk and they're across multiple platforms. So like their reach is huge and that does not translate to lessons at all. And I think that that really then speaks to that quality over quantity. Just because somebody has got, let's say 10,000 listeners on Instagram does not mean that all 10,000 of those people are suddenly going to come and listen to that one episode, because the way that I see it as well is like, you know, let's say that you're a Katy Perry fan.

Verity Sangan (00:33:12) -  Let's say, for argument's sake, that Katy Perry is on a podcast. Just because you're a Katy Perry fan, are you going to go and listen to that podcast episode? Well, probably not. So then why? If you are following someone on Instagram, would you go and listen to their episode on another podcast that people seem to think that if someone's got 10,000 followers on Instagram, they're suddenly and I get like 10,000 listens and you're like, just know. Just like I said, I've had one person where there was a significant spike, but their large audience is an incredibly, incredibly engaged audience. I would say my experience has been the smaller Instagram followers, the smaller tweet tweet followers and Twitter followers, etc. they've been more engaged and they have tended to be the people who have engaged with those episodes. And so yeah, definitely, I would say don't fall into the trap. Anyone listening thinking you have to book, you know, these people with, you know, millions, millions followers because it doesn't necessarily translate over into podcast stats.

Kimberly Spencer (00:34:22) -  And not that it doesn't necessarily also translate into it being a quality guest.

Verity Sangan (00:34:27) -  100%, 100%. And I think that's another really important thing as well, is it's making sure that you're not just booking people based on their followership or, you know, how amazing their Instagram comments are or whatever is, well, what are their brands, what their values? Does that translate across to your brands and values? Because and also, does it marry up with the message that you want to put out and your podcast to be aligned with? Now, sometimes that doesn't mean that you can't have anybody who doesn't agree with your message, because I've actively invited people onto my podcast before and I have said to them, you've got this view, and I know that you've got this view. I've got this view which is polar opposite. I want to do an episode where we basically argue this out, but then but we've agreed on the fact that we're going to argue that out. And it is suited to narratives on on the podcast for podcast listeners.

Verity Sangan (00:35:22) -  But you do need to kind of consider to yourself, you know, do I want this name associated with my podcast? Do I want those views associated with my podcast? And if the answer is no. Can you turn into a challenge or debate or what have you? And if not, then maybe, you know, just because Bob seems to be the person of the minute and is going on everybody's podcast doesn't mean that you need to invite Bob on your podcast as well.

Kimberly Spencer (00:35:47) -  100%. And I think because we talk about having a polarizing perspective, it's one of the things that I encourage our clients to have when they go on, like just have something that you can stand on their soapbox with. And is it though a values match. Like can you equally discuss or is it. And also I think the podcast that don't always do so well is one of like, oh my god, I agree with you. Oh my God, I agree with you here. Oh my God I agree. I have not seen those translate into revenue numbers because there's so much automatic agreement, because you already are sharing so much of the same message that there's no friction and that there's no iron sharpening iron.

Kimberly Spencer (00:36:23) -  So the only way I've seen that shift is when someone, a guest, is able to really tell a different story and come from a different background than the other person who has the exact same strategies, tools, tactics, etc. because everyone can have the same strategies and tips and tricks, but no one has her story 100%.

Verity Sangan (00:36:45) -  Yeah, 100% I love that.

Kimberly Spencer (00:36:48) -  So to wrap this up, because I loved our conversation, what do you look for specifically when you are bringing on guests to your podcast.

Verity Sangan (00:37:00) -  Okay, so first of all, if you give me some kind of pitch or email, which is so obviously copied and pasted, it just goes, I can if it opens up with hey girl, hey there. Hey, you know, just something which is just so obviously run of the mill. I won't entertain it at all if you start off with I loved your latest episode of your podcast. If that's the first line, again, it goes because there's nothing that tells me that you've listened to my podcast or my latest episode.

Verity Sangan (00:37:34) -  But equally, if people go too far and they say, I've loved your latest episode, episode, this number and that, it just goes on and on, that you're like, no, you've been too specific. You've copied and pasted that off of Apple Podcast. So any kind of pitch, which just looks like you are trying to get on every single podcast ever. I'm not going to entertain it because I guess this sounds really big headed, but I mean, you're probably exactly the same. I get I don't know how many of those are weak and I can't filter out any of them. Absolutely. So anything generic just goes. So I would say just be yourself. The ones which I know it sounds really ridiculous, but the ones where I'm like, oh, a person has written this are the ones that I'm going to read. And I also I want to know, what is it that you want to talk about? What is your expertise for talking about that particular topic, and what value can you bring to my audience? And the reason I say those few things is because, first of all, I get a lot of pictures.

Verity Sangan (00:38:35) -  I'm sure you're the same, but I get a lot of pictures where people go, I want to come on your podcast. What do you want me to talk about? And I'm like, well, I don't know what are you an expert in? What did you want to talk about? Like, this is you're not convincing me to give you air time. So tell me, what is it that you can talk about? Why are you the expert? And when I say you're the expert, I don't mean that you need to have, like, a PhD in the subject. You don't need to have made like $1 million doing that thing. But it could be. You know, I've been doing this for the last two months, and I've just nailed this, and I know this, and I've got this unique take goes back to what you were saying about that unique take in that unique story. So what kind of qualifies you, I guess, for want of a better word. And then that third crucial element for me is what value does that bring to my audience? Because at the end of the day, if I cannot provide value to my audience through an episode, they're not going to come back.

Verity Sangan (00:39:27) -  And if that is the first episode that somebody has ever listened to of the podcast and they're like, well, that was a waste of my time, they're not going to come back. They're not going to tell their friends, and if they do tell their friends, they're going to say, don't bother listening to that podcast. So the whole thing is there's got to be value. And I'm not saying value in terms of because I think a lot of the time people think that value has to be like a strict how to or, you know, some kind of education, but, you know, value can be entertainment as well. It can be, you know, telling a story that's relatable, that makes somebody think that, oh, I'm not alone in this situation, but there has to be some element of value, because otherwise, if it's just I'm coming in to talk about email marketing because I've got 20 years experience in the subject I'm going to be like, and I can meet a lot of people in this world can talk about email marketing.

Verity Sangan (00:40:19) -  What is it specifically that you can give it value? What value is that that you can give to my audience specifically. So I would say those three key things as well as just don't send generic run of the mill emails, please. It's.

Kimberly Spencer (00:40:34) -  Yeah, yeah. Our our rule is if you don't say the our name or the my my name and my podcast name are the easiest two things to find. If you don't have either of those in any of the pitch, it's just immediately it goes in the trash. Yeah, I won't even respond to the message.

Verity Sangan (00:40:50) -  I will tell you though, I got the best pitch a couple of weeks ago and I just replied to. I was like, yes, I need you on my podcast. I did an episode a few weeks ago, actually a couple of months ago. Sorry. Now, and it was all about Taylor Swift. What we can learn from Taylor Swift in relation to podcasting. This girl, I'm interviewing her in a couple of weeks. I'm so excited because she wrote to me, she said.

Verity Sangan (00:41:11) -  I listened to this episode. She put about five different Taylor Swift related puns in it, and I was like, you have put so much effort into this. And she was like, I learned this from your episode. I learned this. And then it was just it was fun, fun, fun. I was like, you're funny as well, I like you. And then she followed up with another and I was like, the effort that you have gone to, this is just brilliant. And it told me that she was a person as well. So I just thought it was golden. Absolutely golden.

Kimberly Spencer (00:41:40) -  Yeah, yeah, I love that. And especially like the puns of being able to show and demonstrate how you pitch or give relatability. Like one of the things that when we pitch our clients and sometimes it is a little bit more sus with podcast agencies because there's a lot of them and a lot of them don't pitch very well. And like just going to be honest and from that space like so we go above and beyond and we're like, here's an episode like, here's what we listen to, here's what we think.

Kimberly Spencer (00:42:08) -  Like, let's tie in the perspective. And like, our agency has the Eight Commandments. And like whenever we pitch our clients, like every pitch has to match these eight commandments, one of the first of which is, you know, just have the podcasters name God's sake. Like just call them by their name.

Verity Sangan (00:42:26) -  Exactly.

Kimberly Spencer (00:42:27) -  Like Queen, except for like I will I will consider it if they say Your Highness. Oh, I would consider that. I would consider that. Yeah. Then they would have an understanding of our brand. And so.

Verity Sangan (00:42:39) -  Yeah, now I can. I can see that.

Kimberly Spencer (00:42:41) -  For our brand. I cannot understand that. Not maybe for everybody's, but for ours. I can definitely see that for for both of my companies. So that the ability though to be relatable, to be, to, to show the puns, to show your personality through the pitch is so essential, and I love that you broke that down so effortlessly. Is just like, here's make sure that it's a human, that it's a human connecting with the human and not just, you know, some template.

Kimberly Spencer (00:43:06) -  Like I am all for having templates to a degree, like have a template of your bio. But look the bio. The bio is one of the last things because as my very good friend, precious pitch Master William said on our Crown Yourself podcast, she says nobody will care unless you show them how much you care about them. Yes, it's so true. And so you gotta show a podcaster that you care about them. Because especially like, I love that you take your audience into such deep consideration. And this is something that I've seen consistently with podcasters who have taken the time, who are, you know, top 5% their They're ranked. They're they're crushing it. They consider their audience and where their audience is coming to their podcasts in their journey. And that consideration is like, if you can get their attention to listen to that podcast episode and like what you said, if that's the first podcast episode that they can that someone listens to, like it's your goal to hook them and get them into the other podcast to become a subscriber and a listener, and it should be also the podcast guest skill to be able to make that happen for you, for the podcast, because then that's how you create a win win.

Verity Sangan (00:44:17) -  Yeah, definitely. And I think it's just, you know, to go back to the point as well about standing out, because I think what a lot of people forget is that if you're putting out weekly content, if you do a guest interview every single week, that's only 52 slots that a podcast has got in a year that's not actually that many. And you know, if you look at other podcasts, some podcasts will only do an interview every second episode or once a month. So you really got to make sure that you stand out, because you could be essentially vying for only 12 interviews throughout a whole year for certain podcasts. And I think people forget that sometimes as well when it comes to the quality of their pictures.

Kimberly Spencer (00:45:01) -  Such a good mic drop to end on. And I always love to ask Verity what do you love about our conversation today.

Verity Sangan (00:45:10) -  That is so relatable? I feel like I'm just talking to somebody who gets my life. I think I think that's it. It's just been it's been such a relatable conversation.

Verity Sangan (00:45:19) -  I think, you know, going right back to what we were saying right at the beginning is we're both very relaxed. We're moms. At the end of the day, you know, we've got the kids. If the kids are coming in and out, it's authentic. But us, we both get it and it's authentic for our audience as well. And it's that authenticity piece which is just key for me. So yeah, that would be it.

Kimberly Spencer (00:45:41) -  I love it. Verdie where can we find you? How can we listen to your podcast and learn more about what you're doing for podcasters?

Verity Sangan (00:45:48) -  Absolutely. So it's The Lazy Girl's Guide to Podcasting. Each episode is only 10 to 15 minutes long, so they are very, very bingeable. So it is available late. Just like A Lazy Girl's Guide to Podcasting or Podcasting tips, or how to podcast into any podcast at YouTube. It is there. Otherwise at Verity Song on on Twitter and also on Instagram and the websites Verity Song on. Com everything is there, but check out the podcast because that's what I'm most passionate about.

Verity Sangan (00:46:19) -  So Lazy Girl's Guide to Podcasting can be a lazy girl or a lazy boy, because we do have a growing little community of people who keep contacting me saying, can I be a lazy boy? And I'm like, yes, come on, we're not exclusive. What? We're very community spirited over here. Just come join. So yeah. So Lazy Girls Guide to Podcasting open to however you may identify.

Kimberly Spencer (00:46:41) -  I love that and especially I think that your title of Lazy Girl's Guide to Podcasting is so niche specific and it plays into like the power of marketing to the niche, but accepting the people that come into your world? I think so. It's a beautiful Bingeable podcast. Go listen to The Lazy Girl's Guide to Podcasting. All the links are down below, so it'll make it very easy for you to just click and listen and make sure you subscribe to various podcasts and drop some generosity with a rock star. Rock and review. As always, stand out and let your voice be heard. Thank you so much for listening.

Kimberly Spencer (00:47:18) -  If you love.

Kimberly Spencer (00:47:18) -  This episode, subscribe! Leave us a review and share it with your friends. For more tips on guest podcasting, storytelling and communication strategies, follow us on social media at Communication Queens Agency and visit us at Communication queens.com. I look forward to seeing you in the next episode. And in the meantime, remember your story has the power to save one life. Let your story and your voice be heard.

Ranked No.55 in the United States by Apple Podcasts for Marketing, within just one week of launching, and over 33,000 downloads in the first 5 months, the Communication Queen Podcast with Kimberly Spencer is on the fasttrack to becoming an industry GAMECHANGER, in supporting listeners to tell better stories, enhance their communication skills, and learn how to leverage getting booked on podcasts to grow their business.

From interviews with Top 100 Podcasters, to providing real-life storytelling coaching, and communication #quickies of bite-sized communication tips that you can start leveraging right away, to increase your authority and influence in your niche, this podcast is a must-listen for anyone looking to level up their storytelling skills to serve + sell more in their business. To listen to any of our past episodes for free, check out this page.