Enjoy this episode & transcript below where Kimberly Spencer, Master NLP Mindset & Communications Coach and CEO of Communication Queens, interviews Master Business Strategy & Mindset Coach, Cliff Ravenscraft.

In this episode of the Communication Queens podcast, host Kimberly Spencer and seasoned podcaster Cliff Ravenscraft dive into the evolving landscape of podcasting. Cliff, with his extensive experience since 2005, emphasizes the power of podcast guesting for exposure and audience growth. Kimberly, a master communications coach, highlights the importance of storytelling and authenticity in building connections. They discuss overcoming limiting beliefs, the pitfalls of ad-heavy content, and the need for genuine engagement. Together, they provide actionable insights for aspiring podcasters, stressing the value of delivering meaningful content and fostering relationships over mere monetization.

What you will learn from this episode…

• Evolution and trends in podcasting since its inception.
• The significance of podcast guesting for gaining exposure and building a following.
• The impact of storytelling and authenticity in podcast guesting.
• The importance of providing value and nurturing relationships with audiences.
• Concerns about the increasing prevalence of advertisements in podcasts.
• Strategies for effective outreach and securing podcast guest spots.
• The role of personal stories in creating connections with listeners.
• Overcoming limiting beliefs related to earning money in podcasting.
• The necessity of capturing listener attention in the first few seconds of an episode.
• The collaborative nature of the podcasting community and sharing resources for improvement.

FYI Transcripts may contain a few typos. With many episodes lasting 30-minutes, it can be difficult to catch minor errors. Enjoy!

Listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Podcast Addict, Castbox, Amazon Music, iHeart Radio, Pandora, Youtube, or on your favorite podcast platform.

Cliff Ravenscraft (00:00:00) -  Everyone else out there who has a podcast. And by the way, there's 3.3 million podcasts out there today. They have all invested hundreds, if not thousands. And some people, you know, many multiples of thousands of hours, creating hundreds or thousands of podcast episodes and the average podcast, at least a thousand subscribers all the way up to hundreds of thousands subscribers. A podcast typically has a niche where the exact audience that you want to reach is there. And so if you become a guest on one podcasts, I go on a show and instantly I have anywhere between 50 new followers all the way up to 250 new followers. And if I'm on the right podcast, I might come away with 2500 new followers.

Kimberly Spencer (00:00:50) -  Welcome to the Communication Queens podcast for the visionary leaders, speakers, service providers and podcasters who are looking to stand out sharing their story. I'm your host, Kimberly Spencer, former screenwriter turned master communications coach. On this podcast, I'll be coaching you on how to share your own transformation story so that you increase your visibility, influence, and income on podcast interviews.

Kimberly Spencer (00:01:13) -  Let's get your voice heard. Hi guys, I am so excited to share with you the fact that my book Make Every Podcast Want You How to Become so Radically Interesting You'll Barely Keep from Interviewing yourself is now available for pre-sale on Amazon, so this episode is sponsored by my book. I am so excited to have birthed this book, baby into the world. It is going to be into your hands on August 8th, so click the link below and get it for pre-sale before the book even is released and you will get your copy on August 8th. I am so honored and excited to have been on this journey with you. This is the book that combines all the NLP communication strategies that we talk about on this podcast, along with podcast guesting strategies, tips, tricks, and how you share your story so that you serve, connect, and sell with your message. This book combines all of that to make you a radically interesting and masterful podcast guests that every podcast will want to have, including the top 1%.

Kimberly Spencer (00:02:13) -  So let's get you booked on those top 1% of podcasts. When you get your copy of Make Every Podcast Want You how to become so radically interesting you will barely keep from interviewing yourself. Click the link below to buy it on pre-sale now, So Cliff, you have four top 1% podcasts.

Cliff Ravenscraft (00:02:36) -  Thanks to you. I'm aware of that now.

Kimberly Spencer (00:02:39) -  Let's start there. So I mean, you've been in the podcasting game for a long time. I would consider you like an OG and I want to know what have you seen change in trends in the podcasting world?

Cliff Ravenscraft (00:02:56) -  Wow. Okay. So what? I have seen change since the early days. I started in December 2005 and what I have seen is podcast had an immediate take off with early adopter technology, early adopters, and then was podcasting was adopted by Apple through their iTunes platform, which then brought it to the masses. And it was really great because at the time I was a podcaster about a television show and was at the same time that they brought podcasting into iTunes.

Cliff Ravenscraft (00:03:29) -  They brought the ability to purchase episodes of television shows like the television show lost, which was the first podcast that I ever or a podcast about the television show. And so all of a sudden, millions of people are going to go and try to buy the latest episode of the television show lost. And right below it was the official lost podcast by Damon Lindelof and Carlton Cuse. And right next to that was a weekly lost podcast by Cliff and Stephanie Ravenscroft. So as a result of this, podcasting started to break into the mainstream the non-tech people. However, it still was pretty much limited at the time to people who were Apple users. A lot of people thought that it was limited to people who had an iPod. Some people were very upset about the term podcasting because it some people thought that the pod was means I don't have an iPod. I obviously can't listen to this. By the way, podcasting existed and was available to non-Apple users way before Apple iTunes. So I saw this big, huge wave, and then right about the time I decided to turn into turn podcasting into my full time career was right at the time when it had reached a peak.

Cliff Ravenscraft (00:04:43) -  And in fact, the prevailing message about podcasting in 2008 is that podcasting has peaked. And as an industry, the phrase was podcasting is dead. That is like Cliff. You are making the biggest mistake you could possibly make. And I'm like, you guys have no clue that just because you you're in this for the money, just because you're trying to sell sponsorship and advertising and just because you just want to see this thing go straight up, up, up, up. And just because there's a little bit of a peak in, you're only reaching 150,000 people with your podcast, and that's just not good enough for you. That doesn't mean podcasting is dead. Podcasting is amazing. And so what I noticed in in the trend is that a lot of people said podcasting had peaked as an industry. And and instead then I saw Microsoft come in with their Zune and Microsoft had a podcasting directory, and they shut it down because it wasn't valuable enough for them. And so there, Google has dipped their toes in the water 2 or 3 different times.

Cliff Ravenscraft (00:05:48) -  They're getting ready to shut down Google Podcasts again. Yeah, I mean, it's like.

Kimberly Spencer (00:05:53) -  Pivoting into YouTube as well. And I think that that contributes, you know, the rise of video podcasts has been especially in this past couple of years.

Cliff Ravenscraft (00:06:01) -  Yeah. And there's in my mind I have a little bit of a beef with the idea and sticking to what the actual definition of a podcast is. So, for example, I'm a little bit upset about the fact that Joe Rogan no longer has a podcast, but everybody says he's the most successful podcast out there. And and you might think, why? What do you mean? Joe Rogan doesn't have a podcast? Well, he's exclusive to an app. You you cannot subscribe to Joe Rogan via an RSS feed. And that is the definition of a podcast. And then I think YouTube also brings about some of that confusion. So many people say, oh man, I have a podcast because YouTube calls this a podcast. It's got a podcast playlist and you could subscribe to my YouTube channel.

Cliff Ravenscraft (00:06:47) -  No, you don't have a podcast if there's not an RSS feed. And I can't put it into my podcast that I'm sorry, it's just not what it is. So these are the trends that I'm seeing. But the exciting thing was to see when I started podcasting, there were about 100 to 200 of us, and then I saw it reach 150,000 of us. And then I remember when we broke over a million podcasts in out in the various directories. And yeah, so I've seen all of these trends. And when I saw the next major shift was when cereal came out from NPR and that that that totally exploded podcasting out to a world that had never heard of it before. Everybody was talking about it. You've got to listen to this, and people are listening to that thing in every single way other than a podcast that, but introduced them to podcasts. I have no doubt that true crime podcasts are as popular as they are today, because the first podcast anyone ever heard in their life was serial, a true crime podcast.

Cliff Ravenscraft (00:07:55) -  And you're an NLP person and you know how neural associations can be made. So there's that. And then what? The other thing that I've noticed in a trend that bothers me is just everybody wants to advertise on their podcasts. My wife, who has been podcasting with me since the very early days of 2005, she has probably only ever listened to and or subscribe to 3 or 4 podcasts over the years. Now, she also has a top 1% podcast. She's actually done three of her own podcasts, still produces content today over more than I think, probably more than 1400 episodes of her own. Recently she says, oh my gosh, I was listening to so-and-so and I listened. I was going to listen to her podcast, and it was 2.5 minutes of an ad of ads, and then we got about 15 to 20 minutes into the show, and there was another ad and she says, and I just stopped. I'm like, I just don't have time for that. And I don't want to sit in my car driving, listening to ads.

Cliff Ravenscraft (00:08:56) -  It's like I was listening to the radio again. So those are the trends that I'm seeing and I'm just rambling at this point. But yeah, those are trends.

Kimberly Spencer (00:09:04) -  Yeah, I definitely seen and heard the complaints from like the OG podcasters about that ad space. Like because ads and I see with so many podcasters they want to monetize. And I think there's so much more to monetization. Be of your podcast beyond just having ads. And I think that there that ads can be done in such a way that there is value. But like if I hear a commercial that I'm going to that I could listen to if I, you know, didn't subscribe to the Hulu without the ads, like, then, you know, I would just watch TV or listen to the radio, but I like I become the Netflix child where, you know, I'm used to not having commercials. In fact, my six year old we had we were at a resort in, California, and the only thing they had was like regular TV.

Kimberly Spencer (00:09:55) -  And it was just then that I realized how many commercials they have on actual television shows. And I do think that model has translated into podcasting a bit with having like, the pre-recorded, not even the ones that the the the host is talking about. Like I don't mind and I certainly bought products. If in fact 42% of millennials have reported purchasing from podcasts based on host recommendation. So it is a it is a medium where the medium is more affluent. They are 66% are making over 100 K, 66% or more educated. And they have at least a college degree. So you're putting products in front of educated, affluent buyers, which is a smart move for a business. But on the podcaster side, the difference that I've seen between as a millennial who has purchased products from, from podcasters is I buy from the host, from those recorded intimate commercials that the host records that are about a product that they believe in, that they've tried. I'm not buying, you know, razor blades because they're advertised on on their podcast.

Kimberly Spencer (00:11:04) -  That's like a pre-recorded commercial that you would see on like any other TV network. I went, it's a personal recommendation, and I think that that's the difference as we move into this next generation of podcast listeners, is people are wanting that intimacy. They're they're building those micro communities. And so when you can advertise for a product that really serves and really directly targets and fits your audience, that's not something generic, like generic razorblades, that you can actually have a high purchasing count, but I think otherwise it just is such a turnoff when it's the standard commercial. Like there's a whole reason why Netflix and all of the other streaming platforms are doing so well. And I think, honestly, it's because of the lack of commercials, which has got advertisers wondering, like, how do we profit? And I, I do believe it comes from building those relationships and having those intimate conversations. And if there is a commercial, then it's it's something that the podcaster is directly tying in that's of value to that audience specifically.

Cliff Ravenscraft (00:12:08) -  Yeah. And I followed Leo Laporte since his early days of the This Week in Tech podcast, Mac Bike Weekly and his old whole Twit network. And he started with all the host, endorsement podcasts, advertising. And I've purchased a number of things as a result of listening to those. One of the things that I love about podcasting in general, is that I have the skip 45 seconds ahead and skip 15 seconds behind, so I never have to listen to an ad if I if I don't want to. Okay, so what I was saying, though, is Leo and his entire network had succeeded massively in the early days. But if you were to follow Lisa Laporte on X today and just read her timeline for the last six months. And she's the CEO of that network. She. And if you just listen to their podcast content for the last six months and just hear them as hosts, talk about the fact Leo is consistently saying that their network is absolutely dying financially and they cannot keep the lights on because all the advertisers today are forcing podcasts to do pre-roll interstitial.

Cliff Ravenscraft (00:13:30) -  Show us exactly where it's being inserted. We want you to track IP addresses, tell us who we're reaching and all this other stuff. And so while I totally agree with you that the way that you're describing it is the best way, unfortunately that way I see as a trend is going to the wayside. And the unfortunate thing is that, I mean, you I was listening to your most recent episode about why people aren't getting booked on the top 1%. Just go and listen to a Lewis Howes, go listen to a Timothy Ferris. Go listen to a, you know, one of those podcasts. Click play. And and I can just go ahead and tell you go about 5.5 minutes in. You'll finally get to the beginning of the show. And that is not going to be sustainable long term unless you or somebody that people already recognize you as a thought leader or respect you for what it is that you think and feel and what you have to say, unless you already have that people are not going to stick around and get through 16 90s or even upwards.

Cliff Ravenscraft (00:14:39) -  I mean, 5.5 minutes of an ad, not just an ad. Multiple multiple, back to back to their ads. And also, this isn't about streaming, but Amazon Prime is now introducing ads, Disney+ introducing ads. It was just announced this past week. Apple TV+ introducing ads. Netflix started there. So all of these streaming services are now putting in ad tiers. Your main tier, is now going to start getting ads in it. And if you want to pay more or if you want to see that, continue to see that without ads you have to pay even more. And what I just read and studied is that the streaming services make more money from subscribers who pay a lower monthly rate, but get the ads. And as a result of that, they're trying to raise the rates so high so that the less affluent people will just go ahead and take the ad tier so that they can actually make more money per person because they they're actually losing money from their most affluent users on streaming services these days.

Cliff Ravenscraft (00:15:52) -  So I see that that's the future going to happen in podcasting as us as far as this advertising monetization situation.

Kimberly Spencer (00:16:01) -  Yeah, the model that's happening. And so what do you notice with podcasts guesting as the trends that have been going? Because, I mean, I started podcast, I think my first podcast episode that I ever guessed it on was in 2016, and I didn't quite know what I was doing. And because it wasn't a thing. And now, like when I met you, I mean, we talked about that there are like tons of guest services popping up left and right, and some are not so great and some pitch really poorly. And I really wish their their clients would know like just, you know, how many ones are going literally going in the trash. So what have you known? What have you seen as a trend with guessing? What are the pros that you've seen of agencies and where the pros of people just putting out and just suggesting, hey, this is me, I'd like to get on a few podcasts.

Kimberly Spencer (00:16:53) -  Here we go.

Cliff Ravenscraft (00:16:54) -  Yeah. Well, first of all, I think podcast guesting is one of the greatest things that exists on this planet. I just want to say that first and foremost, before I talk about the methods of how to become a guest. People ask me all the time, we haven't gotten into this. You may have said it in the intro, but for the first 12 years of my podcasting experience, I was known as the podcast Answer Man, and I personally taught and trained more than 40,000 people how to launch a podcast in this world. I share that because podcast guesting has always been around. It is. We've all. In the early days, there were a few hundred of us and we were on each other's podcast. We did collaborations. We did some really fun, unique stuff. And the interesting thing is, every single time we put out a podcast episode as a podcast host, we are always going to have somebody that listens to that episode, and it's going to be the first time they've ever heard our voice before, and then they can determine whether or not they become a subscriber to our podcast.

Cliff Ravenscraft (00:17:56) -  However, that can happen one person at a time. In some cases, that can happen five or 10 or 15 people a week. And depending on on various different things that are going on in your marketing, it can happen hundreds or thousands at a time. But people had always asked me, Cliff, what's the number one way to grow my podcast? By the way, if you don't have a podcast, this will still apply to you. So somebody today I do mostly coaching of full time self-employed business owners, a lot of which are coaches. And and so this a similar question is, Cliff, what is the single greatest way for me to get exposure to my target audience for my coaching services, or for my business products and services. Should I create a podcast? And I said, let's not go there. Let's go with the first question first, what is the single greatest, greatest way for you to get in front of your target audience? Be a guest on other people's podcasts. That is it.

Cliff Ravenscraft (00:18:55) -  If you only have enough time. If you only have, let's just say you only have six hours a month to devote to marketing. Would it be valuable for you to create your own podcast? Sure. By all means, here's what I would recommend that you do. Create a name of a podcast that is so easily searchable. SEO friendly make it your best content. Give everything away for free. Hold nothing back and put out anywhere between 5 to 10 podcast episodes and never publish another episode again. And just keep sending people to that. That's your podcast, all right? So keep sending people to that. And by the way, every single one of those episodes should have a call to action or for your products and services, and your own podcast is only going to get you so far. Here's the interesting thing. Everyone else out there who has a podcast and by the way, there's 3.3 million podcasts out there today. They have all invested hundreds, if not thousands. And some people, you know, many multiples of thousands of hours, creating hundreds or thousands of podcast episodes and the average podcast, at least a thousand subscribers, all the way up to hundreds of thousands of hours.

Cliff Ravenscraft (00:20:10) -  And a podcast typically has a niche where the exact audience that you want to reach is there. And so if you become a guest on one podcast and you know what you're talking about and you resonate with that audience, and that audience is like, wow, who is this person? I go on a show and instantly I have anywhere between 50 new followers all the way up to 250 new followers. And if I'm on the right podcast, I might come away with 2500 new followers.

Kimberly Spencer (00:20:42) -  And clients as well. Yeah. It's like you, it can translate into such beautiful business, especially if. And this is the thing that I've loved about the podcasting community in general is it's really rooted in generosity and collaboration. So I think you for the most part, people have to check their intentions. And are you going on a podcast to just, like, serve your ego and just gimme, gimme, gimme? It's like, make sure that when you go on a podcast, there's an intention of service and really delivering your best value.

Kimberly Spencer (00:21:15) -  And like one of the things that is just such a major pet peeve of is when I hear podcast guests go on and they're going on and they're saying, oh, well, that's in my course. Oh, that's in my program.

Cliff Ravenscraft (00:21:24) -  Oh yeah, give it all away.

Kimberly Spencer (00:21:26) -  Let's end my book. Give it away. Because I guarantee you in your 12 hour course, you're not going to be able to cover all the concepts, strategies, tactics, tools, tips, tricks within the span of 30 minutes to an hour on a podcast interview. So just give it away and make the audience hungry for more.

Cliff Ravenscraft (00:21:42) -  Yeah. So going back to your question, the The About podcast guesting, one of the things that I see is that people are not very clear about exactly what is going to be the greatest return on investment for the time invested in being a guest. So, number one, you need to be very clear about who you are and why you are here. You need to know exactly what your business is, what your product is, what your service is, who your target audience is, what their pains are, what their struggles are.

Cliff Ravenscraft (00:22:16) -  And more important than that, you have to be a master at knowing exactly what language they use. Not that you use, but that they use to describe their pains. And then once you have all of that, then you have to ask yourself, where are these people out in the world? So chances are, if you're thinking about becoming a guest on a podcast so you can reach your target audience, chances are you already have some clients. You've already validated a product or service. So I would encourage you just to go to your existing clients and do a survey. Can you list the top five podcasts that you've listened to in the last two years? Just send that to to a broadcast email to everyone and then take that list. Find which ones are the most common ones and make those your goal to be on. Now, from that point forward, then you have to ask yourself who out there can help me get on to these podcasts? You could try to do it on your own, and maybe you have lots of margin and free time and stuff like that, but chances are, if you're in that scenario, you may not actually have the clout to get on some of the bigger podcasts that are out there.

Cliff Ravenscraft (00:23:30) -  But if you are, if you are an expert in your field, then you could hire somebody who specializes that they know how to break through the gatekeeping wall, and they're not going to introduce you through a simple email. It's like, I have a guest for your show. It's amazing, blah, blah, blah. And you can just tell that ChatGPT wrote the message for them. So there there is something to be said. And I have seen people who had hired virtual assistants for five bucks an hour from India or from the Philippines, which there's nothing wrong with hiring people for virtual assistant work, but that's probably not the best way to go and get yourself a guest spot. That would be great research. Give them the task of finding the podcast that meet the criteria that can save you a lot of time, effort, and energy. But you want somebody who is really an expert at learning how to get breakthrough and get to the host and or their team, the people who make the decision about what's on there and who can negotiate getting you onto that podcast.

Cliff Ravenscraft (00:24:38) -  There's also training in how to communicate and evaluate. I think that if you're going to sign up for a podcast service that's going to get you booked, they shouldn't just get you booked, but they should actually coach you. They should actually evaluate what your message is. They should actually challenge some of the way that you're showing up, maybe even evaluate your most recent podcast episode that you did as a guest and give you some feedback. These would be some incredibly valuable add ons that such a service could either include or have as add ons beyond the getting booked. So those are some of my thoughts.

Kimberly Spencer (00:25:15) -  I love that, and that's one of the things that why we include coaching and into our agency services, so that our clients can get that communication skill set and to learn how to tell a story, because that's not a skillset that's taught really in schools, period. Like I learned how to tell a story because I wanted to be a screenwriter. And so I was studying plays and I was practicing, and I was then in screenwriting, and then my first feature film got picked up.

Kimberly Spencer (00:25:40) -  And so then, like, I knew how to tell a story and knew the hero's journey. Most people the problem, what I see when they go on podcast is they start out with their tips, tricks, strategies, and they don't build that relationship with the audience. Just like you don't really start a Netflix show on episode eight, like you need to be able to guide the audience through the journey of what were the highs and the lows, so that your audience like what you said, Cliff understands through their language that you're meeting them where they're at, that you have been at a similar space and place that they have been, and that you are that best next guide, mentor or coach leader or the your products and services fill that need, but you have to make sure that your they can understand that you understand their pain point, that you understand and respect where they're at. And then you get to be that demonstration for possibility for like, here's where you can be.

Cliff Ravenscraft (00:26:39) -  Yeah. That absolutely telling stories is absolutely essential.

Cliff Ravenscraft (00:26:42) -  It's what brings people into your world. You're telling a story about your life, but inside of your story, they're evaluating their own experience in things that they relate to from their past. And at that point, the two of you have a very intimate relationship. And so if you haven't learned the art of telling a good story in a podcast interview, that's something you'd want to be coached on for sure.

Kimberly Spencer (00:27:06) -  I love that. That's exactly what my book is on. it's coming out in August called Make Every Podcast Want You How to Become so Radically Interesting you'll barely keep from interviewing yourself, so the link to that will be down in the show notes as well.

Cliff Ravenscraft (00:27:19) -  I love that. And by the way, that was I had no clue. So that just came out.

Kimberly Spencer (00:27:24) -  Yeah, yeah. It's that art of being able to craft a good story and to have that connection with the audience so that the audience sees that they the you can be somebody who can help them. Imagine getting a list of 20 podcasts every single week who are looking specifically for a guest like you.

Kimberly Spencer (00:27:46) -  That is the beauty of podcast guest.com. In fact, podcast guest.com was exactly the platform that I use to get booked on the podcast that generated a $10,000 coaching client that kickstarted our entire agency model of how to profit from guest podcasting by signing up for the podcast guest com directory. You also get greater visibility for podcasters looking for guests just like you. podcast.com allows you to get booked on podcasts to expand your reach and your audience. You can join the newsletter for free featuring 20 podcasts every week, and join the Paid Expert directory so podcasters can find you on a personal recommendation. I highly recommend joining the directory simply because it does give you greater visibility, and with the benefit of getting featured in the directory, you have a one page media page that you can send any podcasters to show your bio, your speaking topics, your profile picks, your social media handles, and all the things I recommend you have on a media page. Podcast guest.com creates that for you when you join their directory and sign up for the newsletter, so click the link below to sign up for podcast guest.com.

Kimberly Spencer (00:28:53) -  So I love that you I mean you've supported 40,000 people launch a podcast and there's it. And I love the framework that you give for having a podcast and 5 to 10 episodes. And that's your podcast, and it's a project, not this ongoing thing that goes into eternity. Because I think most 90% of podcasters quit after Ted episodes. For the most part, that's like one of the qualifiers for getting our clients on the podcast is they have to have at least 30 to 50 episodes produced, period, because that shows that they're not a project based podcast or that they aren't a hobbyist where they started the podcast and they kind of got on fade and then they stopped. So talk about the difference in the mindset that goes into a project based podcast that you then leverage for as like a freebie versus an ongoing podcast and the benefits of either one.

Cliff Ravenscraft (00:29:46) -  Sure. So my podcast today, my main podcast is the Cliff Ravenscroft Show. There's 700 and some odd episodes. It originally was known as Podcast Answer Man. Now there's a new podcast called Podcast Answer Man.

Cliff Ravenscraft (00:29:59) -  It's the all new podcast Answer Man podcast. But anyway, I've been producing this show ongoing since I think February 2006, something like that. And the value of having an ongoing show that has been produced forever. There's so many different things that go into it. Number one, it shows people that you're committed to your craft. So when you see hundreds of episodes of archived content and by the way, where the average podcast episode is at least an hour, that communicates something about you, it's like, okay, this person at least has the confidence that they have something worth talking about. I don't know if anybody's listening to this guy or not, but he's got 700 podcast episodes. He's obviously got confidence to put something out into the world. So there is something to be said about a body of work, and there's something to be said about the consistency of a show that can be seen by the released dates or the published dates of podcast episodes. There's a lot of psychology that goes into how people judge a book by its cover or make a first impression, and we shouldn't discount the value of an ongoing show because of that now.

Cliff Ravenscraft (00:31:10) -  Quite frankly, I did one episode a week, every single week for probably more than a decade without ever failing to release an episode. And I think it was in 2018, 2019, I finally decided, you know what? I'm tired of creating content for the sake of creating content. So many episodes that I do here. I'm. I'm feeling like I'm just showing up because that's what I do. And occasionally there's what's called filler episodes, meaning that I just made this up. It's I'm sure it's valuable. I'm keeping you company. That's nice. You get to hear my voice as you're brushing your teeth in the morning or on the commute to work, and I'm sure that's pleasant, but what I recognize is that, wow, what do I really want to do with this show? I definitely want to add value to people's lives, not just talk to them and and have a comforting voice to consume some of the time that they have on this earth. Now I want to add value. I and I want to be seen as someone who adds value.

Cliff Ravenscraft (00:32:16) -  So back in, whenever it was several years ago, about 5 or 6 years ago, I made a decision. I will never create another podcast episode for this podcast ever, unless I feel inspired to create the episode. The qualification is that the idea of me not going down to my studio and recording this episode is way too painful. That is my filter for whether or not you're going to get a new episode. Thankfully, my show has continued to have at least on average 1 or 2 episodes per month every month since then, so I still get the benefit of the ongoing and the consistency and and stuff of that nature. Now, I will say this, that the audience numbers, the number of people who stay subscribed. When you no longer show up and you're not there, you're not there. Morning. Brush your teeth on Wednesday morning, buddy, anymore. They're going to go replace you, and they're going to find somebody else who can be there every Wednesday morning to brush their teeth, to drive, to work on Friday morning, that people are habit creatures of habit.

Cliff Ravenscraft (00:33:19) -  And so there I will say, I definitely saw a massive exodus of subscribers when I made this shift, but here's what happened as a result of making this shift. I had a woman who reached out to me and she said, Cliff, thank you so much for that. This is during the pandemic. And she goes, wow, I after I had that conversation with you in clubhouse, I went and looked you up. I found your podcast, the Cliff Ravenscroft Show, and this is already about two years after I've. I will only produce episodes that I am inspired. And here's a her next words in her email she goes Cliff. So this was about two and a half weeks ago. So for the last two and a half weeks, I've binged listened to more than 30 of your most recent podcast episode. Now, Kimberly, she just told me that in the last two and a half weeks, she's listened to my voice for 30 to 40 hours. This would never have happened if there were filler episodes in there.

Cliff Ravenscraft (00:34:24) -  And so this is the value of creating consistent ten out of ten quality content instead of hitting a ten out of ten every 4 to 6 episodes and having a nice 6 or 7 out of ten in between. No, she wouldn't continue the binge listen unless it was all quality. So there's a reason why I did all of that. I don't again, I don't know what you wrote in the intro, but just so people know, I've produced 52 podcast shows. I have over 4700 podcast episodes of my own that I've published to the world, and I publish about 3 to 7 podcast episodes a week every week. Still, today I have about five shows that are currently active. So one of my favorite things, and this is going to be the contrast to just a short series episode during the pandemic before ChatGPT, and it'll become obvious why I say before ChatGPT. During the pandemic and before I was introduced to ChatGPT, I had the idea I'm finally going to write a book. I mean, I've already spoken a couple thousand books, but I'm finally going to write a book.

Cliff Ravenscraft (00:35:33) -  I'm going to write a book about mastermind groups. Mastermind groups have transformed my life. I've generated millions of dollars in revenue and hosting paid mastermind groups for full time self-employed business owners. And I'm like, I'm finally going to write. And the title of the book is going to be the book on Mastermind Groups. So I'm going to write this book finally. And so I began mind mapping it, outlining it. And I'm like, I just don't want to write. I want to speak. And I'm like, okay, maybe I'll speak it, I'll transcribe it, and I'll do all this other stuff. And I'm like, I don't even want to do that. I don't want to hire somebody. I don't I can't be bothered by this. I got so many other things I'm passionate about right now. So I'm like, wait a second, I've got this outline. I know what I'll do. I'm going to create a podcast with 5 to 10 episodes. This is exactly how I was thinking. And what is going to be called upgrade your peer group.

Cliff Ravenscraft (00:36:25) -  The power of mastermind groups. By the way, you can find this at upgrade your Peer group. Com and I'm going to publish all of these episodes, 5 to 10 of them out to all of the directories, one of which is by the way Amazon's directory, which puts me in audible Now, today, if you go to upgrade your peer group. Com In March of 2014 there are only six podcast episodes, and I haven't produced a podcast episode for this show in over two years. I think it's been a while. I don't think I'll ever publish another episode of this podcast, but it's already generated $90,000 for me. I just recorded six episodes a couple of years ago, and here's how that works. So every single episode I share the best of the best content and information and insight from somebody who has more than 30 years of experience. That's me hosting mastermind groups 30 years, and I took the best of that information and put it into six podcast episodes and at the end of every single episode, call to action.

Cliff Ravenscraft (00:37:33) -  Hey, if you're looking if you're full time self-employed, check out the Next Level mastermind, Cliff Ravenscroft here. I'd love to talk to you about the potential of whether or not you'd be a good fit for my own mastermind. Well, it's $15,000 a year to be in the next level. Mastermind for people found that within the first 45 days of me publishing it, which, by the way, was the only time I ever promoted the podcast. All four of them signed up that $60,000, two of them renewed for a second year. So that's 90,000. So that's how just randomly, I probably devoted a total of 10 to 15 hours putting that together. And that 10 to 15 hours has netted me $90,000. And if I wanted to, I could go and create a campaign. By the way, this is the first time I've talked about upgrading. What do you think? Is there a chance that five or 6 or 7 people listening to my voice right here in this podcast might go to upgrade your peer group? Com what are the chances that those 5 or 6 people will listen to all six episodes? And it's like, what's the chances that one of them might actually apply for the next level? Mastermind.

Cliff Ravenscraft (00:38:40) -  Wow. Amazing. The opportunities are endless for these short form podcasts.

Kimberly Spencer (00:38:47) -  And I've seen this as a strategy for multiple launches from huge businesses that are doing anywhere from 2 to 20 million. So as using a short podcast is an intimate way that that podcast lives on, and at first it's a secret podcast, and then it's just an evergreen podcast. That's only those 5 to 10 episodes.

Cliff Ravenscraft (00:39:12) -  Well, I love that, and I have heard about that, that format as well, The Secret Podcast and the Evergreen Mine, just so people know. My, my whole philosophy was, let me just publish this to the world. I don't I did not do hardly. I showed up in social media and said, hey, I launched another podcast. You know what? I'm surprised I tried and I talked about it in about four other podcasts that I produce, and that's all that I ever did, by the way. One of them. But and if you're thinking it's like, well, gosh, Cliff, you're sitting on a goldmine, why don't you spend the next 30, 45 days just creating a marketing campaign or an evergreen funnel leading people to that? And I'm like, yeah, that's on my list of potential things that I could do in my business.

Cliff Ravenscraft (00:39:55) -  So here's the here's what I would say though, is one of my favorite stories is I had a guy who reached out to me and he filled out my application for the next level mastermind, and he says, I was on a I was on a road trip for 8.5 hours, and before I left for my road trip, I was, he says. I was literally getting ready to pay somebody $15,000 to join their mastermind group. I was I was ready to to deposit the money into their account. But before I did, I felt I'm going to do my due diligence. I don't know anything about mastermind groups. I'm going to find a book, and I'm going to listen to an audiobook on audible while I'm on my road trip, he says. I searched inaudible, and none of the books. I mean, he says there are books there. They're terrible. And he says, but. And then I saw. Upgrade your peer group and it's a podcast. Inaudible. And he's like, what the heck is this? Upgrade your peer group, the power of mastermind groups.

Cliff Ravenscraft (00:40:54) -  And he says, I don't know how I got past this, but the fact is, is it's got a zero star review. It's like no stars because there is no rating for there's no way you can rate a podcast podcast in audible. So because but it's got zero stars, he says. But I went ahead and click the little sample button, and then I heard your voice and you hooked me immediately. And he says, during my road trip, I listened to all six hours back to back, and I immediately talked to the other person, canceled that, and applied for your mastermind.

Kimberly Spencer (00:41:25) -  Amazing. So my next question is how do you hook somewhat immediately because now the most the vital time is are those first 15 seconds of the podcast episode, whether you're a guest or whether you are, depending upon how the show is edited or your host, how do you hook someone immediately?

Cliff Ravenscraft (00:41:44) -  I will give you the perfect answer to that question by leading into what my free giveaway is. Is is that okay? Perfect.

Cliff Ravenscraft (00:41:51) -  Here's a struggle that I had. So when I became full time self-employed after a lifetime of being an employee, as I was an insurance agent in a family run insurance agency owned by my mom and dad, started by my grandfather in 1937. And I'm next in line to take it over my life and my career. job security. I have job security like nobody's business. By the way, this is in January 2008. I became full time self-employed. I'm in a financial industry, so I know about all of the layoffs that are happening. I see the looming financial crisis, but in spite of that, I had to do what I wanted to do for a living. And so I made the leap and became full time self-employed as a business owner related to my content. As a podcaster, I wanted to entertain, educate, encourage, and equip people around the world inspired people to live the life of their dreams. Here's the problem though. I have so many limiting beliefs about money and work. My dad, who owned that insurance agency I worked at, has that Protestant work ethic.

Cliff Ravenscraft (00:43:01) -  The the more you work, the harder you work, the more you earn. And that really stuck in my mind. In fact, the more difficult and more challenging something is, the more you should get paid for it, the more important and critical and and life, you know, saving that something is, the more you should get paid for it. And so I had all of these beliefs, and I'll quickly just tell you that I worked 12 to 14 hours a day, seven days a week, for nine months without a single day off my first year of full time self-employment. Finally, finally, I decided to take one day a week off, but only by agreeing with myself that it's okay to do so by increasing the amount of hours I work the other six days a week. And why did I do this? Because every belief has a consequence. Now here's what happened. I ended my first full year. I was profitable, my CPA says congratulations for having a profitable year. I'm like, what are you talking about? I only made $11,000 net income the first nine months.

Cliff Ravenscraft (00:44:19) -  No paycheck. Now the business was bringing in income. It was earning 3 to $5000 a month every single month. But it was paying for insurance for our entire family. That was a business expense. Paying for a CPA to handle all these taxes that I had no idea what taxes and how all that stuff works. And, you know, bookkeeping and, you know, all of these different expenses buying software and computer and all the different things that come up. Finally, at the end of the year, I only make $11,000 net income. And to celebrate my first year in business, I did a 24 hour non-stop podcast marathon. I recorded 24 one hour podcast in 24 hours. Oh, the 21st hour. I started experiencing massive pain and after the 24 hours were over, I went to lay in bed and I couldn't. And I went to the hospital and I almost died. Well, it turns out that I had massive gallstones and I had a gallstone stuck to my cystic duct. Anyway. Spoiler alert I didn't die.

Cliff Ravenscraft (00:45:19) -  But what happened was I actually came out of that and said, okay, I definitely am not going back to my insurance career. I'm not going back to the family business. I know for a fact I am called to do the work that I'm doing today, but something's got to change. And that's what got me down this path of personal and professional development. And what I realized is that all beliefs have consequences. Why did I only make $11,000 net income? It's because I loved what I was doing. I felt guilty and ashamed every single time I asked people to pay me money for a one hour consulting or coaching session when I felt like I should be paying them because I go to church on Sunday and nobody wants to hear me talk for more than 6 or 7 minutes about how excited I am about podcasting. It's like they're like, Cliff, I'm done with you and your podcast talk all the time. And here these people want to talk to me and and they're willing to pay me money. But I'm like, I should be paying you money for me to be able to.

Cliff Ravenscraft (00:46:20) -  And it's so easy. And and And there's this story that I talk about. so I ended up creating a conference called Free the Dream and in my opening keynote address called All Beliefs Have Consequences. I tell a story about where a client hired me after teaching him how to podcast for $2,000, he bought $1,500 of equipment from me, which I made about $550 or something like that off of that. And then I he paid me $600 for two hours of consulting and coaching on how to hook all of that equipment up as well. And I'm like, man, this guy has paid me so much money. And then a couple months later he says, Cliff, I have a problem. I can't hear my guest on this thing. And can I schedule a time with you? And I said, sure, I'm $300 an hour with a minimum of one hour. He says, great, when can I get on your schedule? At the time, I was booked two weeks in advance. I felt so guilty that I was booked two weeks in advance.

Cliff Ravenscraft (00:47:15) -  Anyway, about halfway through I said, hey, it just occurred to me you could call such and such company for free and they would give you free tech support and they'll solve this for you. You don't have to wait for me. We could cancel our set. It goes, cliff, if it's cool with you. And if you still got the time, I'll see you next week. I can't wait to talk to you. Awesome. So I get on to, let's just say something like this zoom call, and I show up a few minutes early. He shows up about three minutes early. I ask him what the phone number is to his telephone device. I hear this sound and I'm like, oh, do me a favor, pull out the power plug and plug it back in. And then he does that and I'm like, I call him up again. I said, problem solved. And then here's what happens. He says, Cliff, amazing. Thank you. and I said this.

Cliff Ravenscraft (00:48:01) -  What happened is you had a power outage while you were out of town. I'm sure. And when the power came on, it got a surge. And this has happened to me 3 or 4 times because this is amazing. Send me an invoice for $300. The call isn't even supposed to have started yet. And he says, send me an invoice. And I said, I can't. And he said, what do you mean? I said, well, you still got an hour because my belief I'm getting paid by the hour.

Kimberly Spencer (00:48:25) -  Uhhuh.

Cliff Ravenscraft (00:48:26) -  And I my belief this is you have to make this hard for me. I have to earn this 300. I have not earned this $300 because that was a belief. I have not earned this yet. And if you actually follow this story, you'll learn how many times I took people's money and completely threw it in the trash. Because I didn't believed that I was earning the money, and so I refused to receive people's money when they were willing to pay it.

Cliff Ravenscraft (00:48:55) -  If you want, you can head over to mindset and sermon.com/free here. This entire talk that will not only tell you that every belief has a consequence, you'll learn how to discover what limiting beliefs are holding you back, how to become consciously aware of all of your limiting beliefs. Number two, how you will discover what the source of those beliefs are, because it's important that you do so so that they you know that they are not yours. You agreed to something somebody else said, and then three, how to disassociate, how to break up from it. And then number four, how to condition empowering alternative beliefs. This one 60 minute video will transform your life. I promise you, you will never be able to experience life the same ever again. That's how you hook people.

Kimberly Spencer (00:49:42) -  And that is how it is done folks. That is how it is done. And I just want to highlight the key point is that you did that all through a very powerful and compelling story. And so often I've heard from marketers all over the interwebs where there's like, you got to have the Hulk of the question.

Kimberly Spencer (00:50:02) -  Are you a purpose driven entrepreneur who wants to uplevel their mindset? That does not work?

Cliff Ravenscraft (00:50:09) -  No.

Kimberly Spencer (00:50:11) -  Because the story is so much more deeply compelling. So I mean, maybe that works on occasion and maybe that works for a TikTok video. But if you are leveraging someone, if someone, you've captured someone's attention. Studies show that people will listen to a new podcast episode. They will give it a try for five minutes at least at minimum. So you have five minutes to tell a really juicy story. And if you did that in about five minutes and through that hook through story done, go sign up.

Cliff Ravenscraft (00:50:44) -  Mindset answer. Man. Com slash free.

Kimberly Spencer (00:50:47) -  Mindset. Answer sermon. Com forward slash free. So with that live. Where else can we find you other than the Cliff Ravenscroft Podcast for our regular Inspired Value ad every month or two? Where else can we find you?

Cliff Ravenscraft (00:51:06) -  Oh gosh, I like I said, I have lots of active podcasts. Just search for Cliff. Actually go to Cliff ravenscroft.com, spend five, ten, 15 minutes browsing that site.

Cliff Ravenscraft (00:51:16) -  If my voice has resonated with you today, if that story resonated with you today, my guess is that five, ten, 15 minutes spent on my website would be incredibly valuable for you. And if you have any desire to follow me from there, you'll know exactly what to do.

Kimberly Spencer (00:51:32) -  So amazing. Cliff, I always love to ask, what did you love about this energy today?

Cliff Ravenscraft (00:51:38) -  Wow, so many things. Number one, I loved how we got straight into it. I love the fact that you allowed me a lot of space to talk. I love the fact that you communicated ahead of time what this could be if I wasn't a very talkative person. You told me what might actually come out. You might ask me these questions. I even made notes of what I might potentially say to the questions that you said. Not that I would read these, but I just wanted to be prepared. If she does ask me what was my absolute favorite failure? I was like, oh, maybe I could do this one.

Cliff Ravenscraft (00:52:11) -  Maybe I could do this one. I'll I'll decide in the moment. But I was really thinking and preparing ahead of time for what you might potentially. And what I absolutely love is that not one of your pre-written ideas of what you might ask me even came out because I didn't need it, you didn't need it. And we said, oh, and all this didn't even come into the conversation. Many people who are hearing our voice won't hear this. The intention that we set before this, that the right people who need to hear the right message are going to be here specifically for this. And they're going to take away from this episode exactly what they need to unlock them to their next part of the piece of the puzzle, or their next step along the path in the journey that they uniquely are on. Yeah, I think that actually was my favorite part.

Kimberly Spencer (00:53:03) -  Amazing clip that has been such a pleasure getting to know you and speaking to you on this interview and this podcast. It's it's just such a I'm so honored to be speaking with an OG.

Kimberly Spencer (00:53:14) -  Like.

Cliff Ravenscraft (00:53:14) -  Yeah, it's an honor to be here. I'm I'm thrilled for all of the things that you've created and the and the fact that you're an NLP. And I have a fascination for NLP myself. And so I just I just love who you are and how you're showing up. And I thank you for this opportunity.

Kimberly Spencer (00:53:31) -  Thank you. And as always, my communication queens stand out and be heard. Thank you so much for listening. If you love this episode, subscribe! Leave us a review and share it with your friends. For more tips on guest podcasting, storytelling and communication strategies, follow us on social media at Communication Queens Agency and visit us at Communication queens.com. I look forward to seeing you in the next episode. And in the meantime, remember your story has the power to save one life. Let your story and your voice be heard.

Ranked No.55 in the United States by Apple Podcasts for Marketing, within just one week of launching, and over 33,000 downloads in the first 5 months, the Communication Queen Podcast with Kimberly Spencer is on the fasttrack to becoming an industry GAMECHANGER, in supporting listeners to tell better stories, enhance their communication skills, and learn how to leverage getting booked on podcasts to grow their business.

From interviews with Top 100 Podcasters, to providing real-life storytelling coaching, and communication #quickies of bite-sized communication tips that you can start leveraging right away, to increase your authority and influence in your niche, this podcast is a must-listen for anyone looking to level up their storytelling skills to serve + sell more in their business. To listen to any of our past episodes for free, check out this page.