Enjoy this episode & transcript below where Kimberly Spencer, Master NLP Mindset & Communications Coach and CEO of Communication Queens, interviews Fern Chan.

In this episode of the Communication Queens podcast, host Kimberly Spencer, a former screenwriter and master communications coach, dives into the art of captivating an audience with guest, Fern Chan. With her infectious enthusiasm, they discuss the nuances of adapting one's communication style across different platforms, from podcasts to TEDx talks. She underscores the significance of storytelling and emotional resonance, drawing on Maya Angelou's wisdom that people remember how you make them feel. They also tackle common presentation pitfalls, like the dreaded "death by PowerPoint," and offer strategies for engaging listeners and encouraging them to interact and provide feedback, ensuring that the message not only lands but also inspires action.

FYI Transcripts may contain a few typos. With many episodes lasting 30-minutes, it can be difficult to catch minor errors. Enjoy!

Listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Podcast Addict, Castbox, Amazon Music, iHeart Radio, Pandora, Youtube, or on your favorite podcast platform.

Fern Chan (00:00:00) - So I think, again, it is like addressing your podcast listeners, right? If you're listening to us on the podcast, let us know in the in the show notes or like, hey, if you're still listening to this or if you're catching this on a replay or whatever it is like, so you acknowledge that audience, like you acknowledge that you have listeners on this platform and you still want to hear from them and ask them to do something. It should be an email or write a little review, because that would so help, right? Like if you found this helpful, listeners, do this or take a picture of yourself listening to this podcast. I would love to see you do that. Right. So how can you also get your listeners to take some action? Or did you find this funny? Like, you know, there there are some podcasts I listen to when I'm traveling and commuting, and I just burst out laughing, and then everyone looks at me and it's like, what is she listening to? Right? Those those are the things that you could ask, like, did this make you laugh? That does make you giggle, you know, are you listening to it while you're doing the dishes? You know, let me know.

Kimberly Spencer (00:00:53) - Right? And then call them out. I love to hear what you think. So, you know, give your listeners something to do as well so they can have a chance to interact with you, even if it's after the fact.

Kimberly Spencer (00:01:05) - Welcome to the Communication Queens podcast for the visionary leaders, speakers, service providers and podcasters who are looking to stand out sharing their story. I'm your host, Kimberly Spencer, former screenwriter turned master communications coach. On this podcast. I'll be coaching you on how to share your own transformation story so that you increase your visibility, influence, and income on podcast interviews. Let's get your voice heard.

Kimberly Spencer (00:01:30) - Fern. How do we not suck at presentations?

Kimberly Spencer (00:01:34) - How can I not suck at our communication?

Kimberly Spencer (00:01:36) - Like, let's just let's just hit it on the head?

Fern Chan (00:01:38) - That is such a good question. And first, you know the reason I say how to not suck at something is it really does jar people, right? Some people may not have the courage to admit that they suck at something, but some people go, oh my God, yes, I really need help with that.

Fern Chan (00:01:52) - And it's really also to like, get the right people into my world, right? If you're not afraid to be a little bit offended by some of the language I use, then you know what? Let me work with you. Because sometimes the honest truth can be a bit brutal. Maybe what you need to hear. And then with some loving guidance, I'm going to show you how to not suck, because it's really just a matter of making a connection with your audience. And we forget that we are in this zone. And I believe this by people who get up, who want to share information. It takes a lot of courage to actually even get up and speak in public. I'm sure many of us who, you know, dread speaking in public, I'm a shameless hack, so that doesn't apply to me. However, for those who want to share their genius, right? It takes so much courage. So you do it out of service, right? Why would you get up there otherwise if you didn't want this knowledge to help somebody else? So let's make sure this message counts.

Fern Chan (00:02:40) - But make sure that it is something that you can connect with the person. It's not all about your 20 years of knowledge. And I say this because I come from the world of higher education. And, you know, we have a lot of brilliant people, but they just love to pour 20 years of knowledge and research into these, you know, very long slide decks and everybody's falling asleep because they, you know, use it like a teleprompter and it's like, oh, you've lost your audience, right? So I think it's like, how do we honor the time of your audience? How do we make sure that if I was sitting in the audience, I would want to lean in to learn more to about what you have to say, not after one minute going, oh gosh, escape route. Let's start planning my escape. Daydreaming, looking at my phone, playing words with friends or whatever it is as a distraction. So I think that's also in many ways, like I said, like how do we not suck and we don't realize it? And first of all, you know, it's like how what do we want our audience experience to be? And how can I make that connection for them? So they'll want to learn more.

Fern Chan (00:03:37) - And at the end of the day, it's like, how do you want to make your audience feel about receiving such amazing knowledge that you can share on them? So that was a lot to a short question, but we could tease it out a little bit more.

Kimberly Spencer (00:03:47) - Yeah, so I'd love to know the difference of communication styles from your perspective between a presentation, a podcast interview, TEDx talk style, a keynote, what is the difference in how you communicate between them?

Fern Chan (00:04:06) - So a lot of it has to do with some formatting as well, right? So with a podcast like you and I were speaking, it's like an interview style. I'm not putting up a slide deck. So it's a very different sort of free flowing conversation. So that's a different style, that's more natural. And I think it's a lot easier in that sense. Right. We're trying to speak to your audience. We know who your audience members are. We want to make sure that what we, you know, share with them at the end of it would serve them.

Fern Chan (00:04:28) - So again, this is more conversational and fun. Ted talks have a very set format. They don't go over 20 minutes, 18 minutes at most. Right. You're talking about one point, and then you're spitting out all the sort of things that you can speak to. You might have a slide deck, but it's a very different format. Chris Anderson wrote the book Talk Like Ted. So that's, you know, a great resource for you to actually look at. I read his book. I actually used his book as part of the research for my book, because I was thinking about ways of how do we communicate, right, using some of the Ted principles. When I do presentations now, primarily I was doing presentations. It was because I was teaching, I was training, I was training adult learners. I was training a lot of law enforcement officers because what I was training them was in communication skills, especially when they encounter people in crisis. People have mental health issues, and I wanted to make sure that they could use their communication skills first as a tool before they have to grab your weapon.

Fern Chan (00:05:21) - So there's this mantra that we need to say, like talk down before the takedown. That is such an important skill set to have, but I had to make sure that what I was training them stuck because they could not implement the lessons I was teaching them. Lives could possibly be at stake. So again, right, it's like with the intention, like you mentioned before, how can we make this something that is also digestible that I can actually take in, right. And then actually use it my daily life. And you have to make sure that it connects with them on some level. It can't be too out there or academic in a sense. Unless of course, you're talking to other academics. It comes about knowing your your audience, but all those sort of things would differ in how you are actually delivering this message of your your training or whatever, in what style, right? If your training is going to be a different thing, if you're doing a webinar, again, you're just giving information and you may not have the the option to have as much interaction versus other formats.

Fern Chan (00:06:19) - and what else did you mentioned.

Kimberly Spencer (00:06:21) - Like keynote keynote. Okay. Yeah. And, and you know, traditional academic slide show presentation because you painted such a beautiful picture in the beginning of like sitting in that classroom. And there's that, you know, academic and they've done all their research and you're like, just, you know.

Fern Chan (00:06:41) - 20 bullet points later.

Fern Chan (00:06:44) - Of all the things you're like, I, I guess I'll remember one. And I think looking at, you know, people who are professional speakers, like, I think Tony Robbins is one of the greatest communicators, like him or don't like and like he emotional eyes is the the words that he uses. So how do we in all of the, the styles, the emotional lies and paint the picture of those emotions?

Kimberly Spencer (00:07:11) - So you hit the nail right on the head, right? Yes. you have to make that connection with emotions. And it's if you remember what Maya Angelou said, what she said was, and I'm paraphrasing, people don't remember what you said, but they remember how you make them feel.

Fern Chan (00:07:28) - Right. And so you have to sort of think, well, how can I how can I generate some sort of visceral feeling and reaction to the things that I say? And the best way I do this is also using another very proven, technique, and it's storytelling because we're painting a picture, right? Words plus images and feelings will give you that long term. Because again, how many people remember, they always say like, oh, I can picture the face, but I can't remember the name. But they never say like real name. But I remember the face because images, you look out for a lot of it. So when you think about narrating a story and when you say those words like, imagine this again, you've already trained the brain to imagine, to think about something else, right? So, so people who hear that immediately put themselves in the story, and they're most likely putting themselves in the lead character. Nobody believes in the bullet. They thought, let's see, like I'm in the story, how am I going to conquer this obstacle? How am I going to get to my destination? How am I, as Luke Skywalker, going to defeat Darth Vader and save the galaxy? Right? Right.

Fern Chan (00:08:42) - So it's like you're painting this picture of how we could get there, and then you get up, you know, for half. Well, now what happens if Luke Skywalker doesn't succeed? What happens if he absolutely fails in his mission and he doesn't destroy the Death Star? Oh my God, what happened in death? Darth Vader one right. And then you can just imagine like, oh no, we're going to be living in a different world altogether. But.

Fern Chanr (00:09:05) - You know what?

Fern Chan (00:09:06) - I have a solution to make sure that you, as Luke Skywalker, can win the day. Do you want to know how? Now everyone was like, yes, I want to know. They are leaning in. So again, storytelling. And I just use, you know, Star Wars because I'm a big Star Wars nerd. I have a lot of references to Star Wars in my book. In fact, I use the C-3po formula. I have to the Jedi order of things so, you know, things that are easy for people to remember if you're a Star Wars fan.

Fern Chan (00:09:33) - If you're not, it's okay.

Kimberly Spencer (00:09:36) - You and my husband should really get along. And that's in the in the Star Wars love. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it sounds to me. Are you familiar with Story Brand?

Fern Chan (00:09:45) - Absolutely. I'm a fan of Donald. I'm a student of Donald Miller. I got to meet him in in, in Tennessee. So I'm really quite, you know. Yes. Story about always. Yeah. You are the guy, like, showing the way. Be the Yoda. Right. So you can show your audience members who are your heroes. They are going to be your Luke Skywalker to make sure that they can defend, you know, the universe.

Kimberly Spencer (00:10:08) - Yeah. And that's why when I'm working with clients, in how they're communicating on their podcast, like, I always want to make sure that I just had a conversation today with with one of our clients. And I said, you know, you don't necessarily need to paint the picture of all the trauma that you experience because your audience isn't going to want to put themselves completely in the picture, like, especially if it's trauma.

Kimberly Spencer (00:10:35) - But if you're sharing a story of like domestic violence or something that happened in your past, being able to mention that it happened and then guiding people into, like, you know, the story of the lesson of how to into the lesson of what you learned and to the empowerment. People want to feel that even if they're in that place, they don't want to really feel that space of being in the suck unless you're watching some, Academy Award nominated movie, which most of the ones getting nominated these days are just incredibly depressing. but that they want to be the hero, and being able to find that hero's journey and pitching that hero's journey is, is so I, I've seen such a difference between the pitches that we receive for as a podcaster, for our Inner Self podcast and then and the pitches that we deliver for our clients when people lead with that hero's journey story, when, when it's like, okay, they went from, you know, stuck on the planet to saving the galaxy. And that's the journey that people are interested in.

Fern Chan (00:11:42) - Absolutely. And that's it. Right? It's like people like journeys because because it's transformation at the end. I mean, if you look at my book title, you know, it's giving you a mandate, like how do you not do something right? And then you got to transform your skills from boring to badass who don't want bad. I want to be a badass. That's like people who go.

Fern Chan (00:12:01) - You already are for. And I can tell people.

Fern Chan (00:12:04) - Who want to say, I want to be a badass will self-identify and go, yes, I may not be there yet, but I want to know how. Right? So how do you paint that picture from that? And I say this not because, you know, I became a badass because I used to soc. I learned the lessons because I did the death by PowerPoint. I blocked lopped off a lot of people with a lot of bullet points. I thought, oh, gosh, it could be a better way to do this right? See what you.

Kimberly Spencer (00:12:28) - Have to describe to me. Paint me the picture of what is death by PowerPoint.

Fern Chan (00:12:31) - So death by PowerPoint is when you have a presenter who has a jam packed slide and the thoughts are super small and he starts to read every damn line. So it's like the slide deck becomes like a teleprompter, right? It becomes a real crutch. So rather than really using just as a visual aid, it becomes the whole presentation and they start to read from it. Or there's just so much information that the audience starts to read along and they're no longer listening to you, and you've lost your audience at that point. I mean, that's the thing, right? I mean, don't misunderstand me, I love PowerPoint. I think it's a great tool, but I would never use it as some people have misused it, to put everything up there. Right, like, oh, I'll just put on a slide and then, you know, I was like, oh, I'll need that to remind me of what to say.

Fern Chan (00:13:20) - And then it becomes like everything they say. And then it's like, you know what? If you want your audience to read along with you, give them a handout. Right. They came to listen to you and what you had to say. You are the subject matter expert, not the slides. Right. So it's one of those things that people forget and they start to use it as like a crutch to then, you know, give them that false sense of security. I mean, some people don't need a slide, which is great, which is great if you can speak and memorize what you have to say and be able to guide your audience. Wonderful. I like to use, some visual cues just so I can draw my audience in. Right? And sometimes I use other things like, oh, there's a video or I'm going to get them to listen to something. So I piqued that. Interested? You know what? I'm going to play an audio clip. And. I want you to really listen.

Fern Chan (00:14:07) - And I'm going to quiz you on da da da da. Right. And then you'll go, oh, what is this, you know, thing I have to listen out for. So there are many things that I use a presentation slide deck for. And you know, some of those other things are like multimedia content, but also like how do I pop something up that gives them something to look at and go, oh, wow, what is that? Right.

Kimberly Spencer (00:14:25) - yeah. So you've successfully I mean, you wrote the book How to Not Suck at Presentation, and then you transformed that into a coaching program, and now you're appearing on podcasts, sharing some of this amazing information. How do you translate? The presentation style into podcast format so that it connects and converts people into your world.

Fern Chan (00:14:50) - Well, first of all, you should always be authentic to yourself, right? Whenever you're whatever you're sharing. People will buy into your message again because they they know, like and trust you. So if you're speaking from the heart, be authentic about it.

Fern Chan (00:15:03) - But I also say bring your passion. You are speaking on something that you probably know a lot about, right? That makes you hopefully. Yeah, right. Just think about that. I go on stage, right? I'm like, oh gosh, don't pull me up there. But don't anything about this. So again, it's one of those things like should everything fall apart, like, you know, even if the technology fails and everything else doesn't work, you should still be able to speak from your place of knowledge and genius and share that with the world, right? Always sort of think, how can I get this message across to my audience so they can at least take one jam with them and then act upon it? So I don't think it matters so much in terms of whether I'm speaking on stage or if it's a webinar or whatever. The goal is, like the listeners, the audience. How can I help you use this information in your life so you can get your word out? Because I really believe that what you have to say matters.

Fern Chan (00:15:55) - Otherwise, you know, these ideas would just be ideas, right? But if you want your idea to count for it to like, make a difference because that's why people share their ideas. That's why people have the courage to to get up there and share their knowledge. Now, even if you are doing this because it's your job, right, you have to present your, your, your quarterly numbers. But that might seem like boring thing in the world. Who wants to know what these you know, KPIs mean? But guess what? There is an intended audience who never needs to hear these numbers. It could be your higher education. It could be your sales team. They have a vested interest in knowing what these numbers are so they can go, oh, we did really good. Let's do more of that. Or who do? Yeah. We are really, you know poor on sales. We need to like upsetting things. So again what you present, you know, use it as a means to inform your audience so they can take action on that, on that information.

Kimberly Spencer (00:16:49) - And that's the other thing that people sometimes forget. They give all these wonderful information and go, okay, that's it. That's fine. Well now what what do you want me to do with this information? Right. Even if it's like, did you learn anything? Right. If you even tell your audience, you know, post something on your social media platform and tell me the one thing you learn or raise your hand if you learn whatever it is, you train your audience to engage with you in a way, because once they start taking action and they see other people taking action, they'll want to participate, right? Because nobody wants to be left behind. FOMO, big thing, right? Even when you're doing webinars or if it's a virtual presentation, use the chat. Use the functions that are there. Use what the platform gives you to give you some form of engagement, right? Whenever you are giving any sort of information, I always like it to be a bit more of a two way conversation.

Fern Chan (00:17:41) - I mean with you and I work with conversing, we're talking and hopefully your audience will get something from it if they go oh God for talks with that I think that's okay. but again right, how do we have some back and forth and how do you invite your audience in on the. So that's why it's, you know, being authentic to yourself. And not everybody has to be loud and gregarious. And, you know, out there, I'm a bit like that. But, you know, some people don't identify with that. And if you're a more quiet soul and if you are a nervous bigger, it's okay. It's okay to own that and go, you know what? Come right out and say, you know, I'm a bit nervous when I start. and, you know, I might fumble my words a little bit. And people out there who are nervous and shy, I'm going to go, oh my God, I could so relate to that. And they could have a lot more sympathy and empathy.

Fern Chan (00:18:27) - Because you know what? You're a brave person to get up there and it's better for you that you're up there than me. So I think it's okay to earn the on the nerves and be okay to be a shy person, to smile.

Kimberly Spencer (00:18:38) - And I think that that, on on that point, on a coaching note, when you do people if you ask for permission to say, like even in a coaching session where you're like, I'm going to say something that you're probably gonna want to punch me in the face for, and you call something out and you know that there's a behavior or pattern that you need to call out. People will be more forgiving if you just. Like, announce it and declare it, and then they'll actually be interested, and then you actually get their buy in and their permission to be able to share the thing. So it actually provides you with more grace. I love that tint of being able to call it out initially, because it actually provides your audience with giving your basically, in essence, getting your audience to give you even more permission, to fumble, to mess up to because you're creating that relatability solutely.

Fern Chan (00:19:33) - And I always say this when I have a lunch cap or an after lunch crowd, sometimes I don't get to pick the sessions. I guess it's like, oh, the after lunch is the toughest crowd I find because they're digesting. It's different. If you're in person, you get to walk around the room a little. I'm like very mobile. I never stay behind the podium and I get to like walk in the room and if I see somebody nod off a little bit, I sort of like, go and go, oh, tap, tap on the shoulders. Like, what do you think? You know? So when they see motion, they can follow you. But you know, when you're doing a zoom, virtual presentation perhaps, and it's right after lunch and everybody has a camera off. You don't know if they're they're sleeping behind the camera. And I always say, you know what? I understand that you're probably still digesting your lunch. And, you know, eyelids may be a little bit heavy, and it's okay.

Fern Chan (00:20:16) - I'm going to try to make this as interesting and zappy as possible and to make it as interactive. So, you know, I don't lose your attention. Are you with me?

Fern Chan (00:20:23) - It's like.

Fern Chan (00:20:25) - let me, let me in the, in the chat. So just so I know you're still listening and you're still awake. Right. And then you're like, oh, right, I don't know, you've been caught sleeping. So just little things like that.

Kimberly Spencer (00:20:35) - Yeah. And I really wish that, you know, if you're listening to this on the podcast, please go over to our YouTube and watch this. Because Fern's body language is in and of itself, engaging. She's leaning forward. There's a really beautiful big smile on her face, and you talk with such a gorgeous smile. And you bring that that light through your face, and you can hear it in the tonality of your voice. I'm sure if you're just listening to the podcast, you can hear it, but go over and watch this episode on YouTube and just watch the the engagement that she naturally has.

Kimberly Spencer (00:21:08) - She's leaning in.

Kimberly Spencer (00:21:10) - Now.

Kimberly Spencer (00:21:11) - When it's a podcast scenario for like, we don't have a chat, we don't have, we can have a call to action. We can have, you know, hey, engage. But the engagement is really in the dialogue of our connection. And then it's from that, that. It brings the audience along, especially if they're like longtime listeners of the podcaster. And they they're used to a certain level of engagement. If I'm checking out, then that means that they might be checking out, but I'm not checked out like I'm fully engaged or we're like, right here doing the thing. Like, I'm so excited. So without those tools of having the slide deck or having a chat, what are some tools that we can leverage to engage on a deeper level in a podcast interview?

Fern Chan (00:22:03) - So I think, again, it is like addressing your podcast listeners, right? If you're listening to us on the podcast, let us know in the in the show notes or like, hey, if you're still listening to this or if you're catching this on a replay or whatever it is like, so you acknowledge that audience, like you acknowledge that you have listeners on this platform and you still want to hear from them and ask them to do something.

Fern Chan (00:22:23) - It should be an email or write a little review, because that would so help, right? Like if you found this helpful, listeners, do this or take a picture of yourself listening to this podcast. I would love to see you do that. Right. So how can you also get your listeners to take some action? Or did you find this funny? Like, you know, there there are some podcasts I listen to when I'm traveling and commuting, and I just burst out laughing, and then everyone looks at me and it's like, what is she listening to? Right? Those are those are the things that you could ask, like, did this make you laugh? Did this make you giggle? You know, are you are you listening to this while you're doing the dishes? You know, let me know. Right. And and then call them out. I love to hear what you think. So, you know, give give your listeners something to do as well so they can have a chance to interact with you, even if it's after the fact.

Kimberly Spencer (00:23:09) - I love that idea of the take a picture of of yourself all listening to it, because so many people like, don't do it if you're driving, please. Like, oh yeah, pull.

Kimberly Spencer (00:23:18) - Up.

Kimberly Spencer (00:23:20) - All over, stop the car, take yourself, then get on your merry way. But that engagement and also gives the faces, it gives the faces of the audience. Because I think especially for podcasters, you know, you see the data of your downloads, you see the data of, you know, how many people are listening and sometimes that faceless number. And it can be disheartening because you're like, you're putting so much love and heart and effort, and then you're like, oh, I mean, having coached multiple podcasters, you're like, oh, I got 16 downloads. Oh, and I'm like, have you ever been in a room with 16 people? That's a small, intimate workshop. So you just provided workshop level content for them. But being able to connect with a face, a really phenomenal tip to be able to request people to take a selfie, listening to the podcast and share it.

Fern Chan (00:24:09) - Yeah. I mean, that's like, you know, turn around, you know, and then again, it invites them into the conversation too, right? And then it's like, hey, if you leave a review, I will shout out some of your reviews on air that would help us so much. And just to say thank you, I'll read out your review on there. Right now. You're giving. Now you're saying, oh my God, she acknowledged me listening to her podcast. How awesome is that?

Kimberly Spencer (00:24:30) - Yes, yes. And that's that level of engagement I love it. So on Fern's advice, y'all, you're going to take a picture of yourself listening to this episode. Make sure to tag the ad communication Queens Agency and furnish. And so we know that it was this episode that you took your action on. Yes. And so I want to shift gears because you are an author. Preneur you created a book, you created a coaching program from that book, and it was actually your books publisher or.

Fern Chan (00:25:04) - Self-published, actually. Oh, self-published.

Kimberly Spencer (00:25:05) - It was the the promotion. Yeah, yeah. For your book that actually reached out to us for you to be on the podcast. And I would love to know what has been your success with podcast guesting? What did you notice? What did you like or did you not like?

Fern Chan (00:25:19) - So I've been invited on an array of different, podcasts. A lot of them also centered on helping other entrepreneurs. And so I was on The Athlete Entrepreneur. I'm like, oh, how interesting. You know, he was a former NBA player. I, what was it, football player anyway? It's like now he's taking all his sort of skills that he learned as an athlete into how that works out in entrepreneur. And I'm like, oh, that's interesting. Like, you know, back in the day I just played a I played rugby and I was a marathoner and all those other things. So. Right. You sort of find all the things to talk about. How do you apply life lessons, you know, from what you've learned and in your sort of life experience to, to transfer into this.

Fern Chan (00:25:58) - So, you know, and then I've got a law entrepreneur coming up. So it's so it's interesting because all of these people in whatever different fields also could use the tips and tricks of how to be better presenters and be better communicators. Right? So there's a common denominator. But I also find like who is my host and how can I relate to them, their audience and who they pitch to. So I can then say, hey, you know what? Because you are a lawyer and I actually do have a law degree. I went to law school. you know, I use some of that just just to be a better writer. I don't practice law a day in my life, but my God, does it help me to have, like, clear, you know, write more succinctly and, you know, probably and sort of.

Kimberly Spencer (00:26:35) - Creation and influence.

Fern Chan (00:26:36) - Yeah. Yeah, at a very technical level. But again, you want death by PowerPoint. Listen to a law lecture. Oh. God, from those days in law school, you know, but you don't even realize it because you just think like, this is how information is presented until you sort of think, oh, gosh, when the shoes are on the other foot, and then you have to give boring information, it's like everybody's going to fall asleep.

Fern Chan (00:26:59) - I'm going to make this, you know, stick somehow, and I'm not going to teach law to these officers. If they don't, if they can't even sit through this first bit of the legislation, you know. So anyway, side note side, but again, so the book helped me to, to pull all of the information together. And I know that this can help so many different people, not just presenters, but sort of think about if you're a leader, how do you present your information in a way that is clear and succinct, that, you know, you can bring your team along with you? Because that's the that's the thing, right? You want to make sure that everybody's still with you at the end and then buying into what you have to say, because if you've lost your team member because everybody, everybody forgot what the damn mission is because it was so long and convoluted. But then, you know, nobody will know what they have to do. So, you know, so that hits on different levels.

Kimberly Spencer (00:27:50) - And also if you're an entrepreneur, if you're a coach, you have to speak to an audience about your services. Like how can you help them solve that problem? How is it that you can help them transform their life in a way, doing it, doing it with your method or whatever? Make sure that you can, you know, relay that information so it speaks to their. So they know they can say, oh my God, you know, Kimberly has the solution for me as a life coach, and I want to learn from her because she touched on all these things. She really understands me. But if you can't, if you make it more about yourself when you make yourself a hero rather than a guide, then hit me like, oh, people can go, well, I don't want to know about their heroes to help me, right? So that's one of those things that, you know, you have to like, make sure that you can get that message out. And how do you use those sort of skill sets?

Kimberly Spencer (00:28:36) - So what have you noticed with the the success of the book? I mean, happening from going on podcast, because I know podcast listeners are learners, you know, three out of four listen to learn something new.

Kimberly Spencer (00:28:49) - That's 75%. And, we work with authors before who have seen a significant uptick in their book sales. I know, my mentor, Brendan Burchard, shares how Tony Robbins, because their books came out at the same time, The Motivation Manifesto and Money for the game. And Tony was just a beast. He went on 600 podcast like and the the sales on his books stayed for like eight weeks longer, like on the New York Times bestseller list, because it's just a continuation of just consistency of going on podcasts. So what have you noticed from your book sales as an author?

Fern Chan (00:29:28) - so definitely more, yeah, an uptick in sales because, you know, you're introducing yourself to a new audience, right? And now it's so easy, like it's so much easy. So for somebody to get my book as a Kindle, it's it's, you know, Thulani, like if you have Kindle publishers free. Right. But you can get the paperback. So you, you have multiple means of also growing your revenue more than one stream so they can get the audible right.

Fern Chan (00:29:50) - They can get the paperback or they can get the e-book. That's three streams already that you can constantly get, revenue from. Or if you want to sell directly from your website, that's also a possibility. But I, you know, I can't be bothered doing all the shipping and stuff. So it's okay. So, you know, how do you then use that as a I use the book like a business card. For me this is just introducing people to who I am, but also it gives me the authority. Because you know what? I've published a book and I'm very blessed that it got to Amazon bestseller status. Right. It's like, oh, this is great. People wanted to know more about this. It's also easy to digest. It's not a tome. It's not an encyclopedia. It's got beautiful pictures in there. It's in color. People can see go, oh, I get what she's trying to say, right? It's easy on the eyes. It's digestible information. So again.

Fern Chan (00:30:34) - Right. You sort of think about how do I use this as a business card. So the next time people ask you, oh Fern, what do you do? It's like, oh, well, I'm an author and educated and a speaker and I wrote this book so and so. You can get it on Amazon. Would you like to have a copy? It's like they become really good calling cards. They're great as Christmas gifts. If you want people. People love to have physical tangible things. Like it'll show somebody they have something to own right. It's like publish it, it's beautiful. It's you know it's tangible. People like to hold tangible things. And if you can solve a tangible problem with your tangible product, it's a winner. Right.

Kimberly Spencer (00:31:13) - There are. Yeah. And I think the the key piece, I love how you framed it, that you use your book as your business card. And that's, that's the calling card that is like, here's, here's the lead, the lead magnet, that it's a no brainer.

Kimberly Spencer (00:31:30) - And especially since you demonstrate your authority as you're going on podcast sharing what your what your book is about, practicing what you preach. I mean, you mentioned you've been targeting a lot of entrepreneur podcasts. who's your book for?

Fern Chan (00:31:45) - So my book is for I know it seems so, so broad to say, like anybody has to give a presentation. But, you know, I would say it's for business professionals, consultants, entrepreneurs, coaches. If you have a message to get out there that you want to make sure it resonates and sticks with your audience. So that's why I think also coaches make a really this is a good book for coaches, educators because I come from that world, right. Conference speakers. but again, business leaders, professionals, if you need to make sure you have to get a clear and succinct message out, right. How do I make how do you make sure that your presentation is so dynamic that you don't lose your audience and that it sticks? So you have to make sure that you have to deliver a message at the other end, and you want to make sure that you can get a reaction from your audience, but also make sure you have an engaged audience.

Kimberly Spencer (00:32:33) - That's the key thing, I think engage audience so they're not falling asleep or they it just goes in one ear and out the other again. Right. It's all about also, what do you want that human experience to be? What do you want your audience to experience? Because I definitely don't want to be wasting your time if you're going to fall asleep. Right. And then I put in all this time and effort to put this amazing presentation, and you're not listening, because I would feel like that would suck, that would really like I as a speaker would feel so deflated and dejected and it's like, oh my God, I don't want anyone to do this again, because that just really sucked, right? Putting all this time and effort and nobody really heard me. Whereas if we had somebody at the end and go, oh my God, that was amazing. I really learned so much from you, how can I know more? Where can I get more of your thing that I think is like what you do and how does it open up opportunities for you? Right when you land your message and people want to learn more, right? They're going to come up to you and say, I want to know how you can do this at my company, right.

Fern Chan (00:33:28) - Let's have a conversation. So the the possibility of those future opportunities. But not only that, creating fans like I'm so I'm so touched every time I speak sometimes you go, oh I don't care what you're talking. I just show up because I really enjoy when you speak. So that is like validation to the point where it's like, oh, I know I'm a good speaker because, you know, again, when somebody says, I don't care what you speak about, I just see your doctor, I'm going to show up because I know I'm going to get something from it so that I think I, I as a form of compliment, are you going to create raving fans? You're not just building your authority and connection and getting, you know, groupies, but you could have potentially opportunities that come from landing a very successful presentation. You might even get a promotion because your your upper manager going to say, wow, food was so good at delivering. We're going to make sure that she's the one who speaks at events.

Fern Chan (00:34:20) - We're going to take her on sales call, she's going to be talking to that joint venture capitalist, whatever that may be, because she can deliver that succinct message that's going to make people open up their wallets to buy it. Right?

Kimberly Spencer (00:34:30) - Yeah, I think, and the ability to present the ability to speak in just in general to communicate. I mean, one of our clients just got booked to speak at Google and Microsoft because she was going on podcasts, because she was sharing her story, because she was using her voice. And so I'm curious, looking at your, because our agency operates from a space of we have a three tiered strategy that's successfully leveraged over 200 K for our coaching business. That is from guest podcasting alone. And it sounds to me like you're hitting a lot of the entrepreneur, the business professional side side of podcast. But I'm curious because what are the the the third part of our strategy is we hit the story and those interesting pieces of your story, and now you've you've delivered a keynote at the United Nations in Vienna.

Kimberly Spencer (00:35:20) - Like, you've helped over 200 people level up their presentation skills. You've published a bestselling book. So like and who is the person behind like, behind the book? Like, what are those juicy pieces of stories that actually could provide you with a whole blue ocean of a new audience that maybe needs your book, but they don't know they need your book because they're not listening to the business professional podcasts.

Fern Chan (00:35:43) - So they're probably one thing that people know about me and it's probably because, like, I'm such a shameless ham, I feel like I used to be a burlesque performer, you know? Right.

Fern Chan (00:35:53) - and so, you.

Fern Chan (00:35:54) - Know, I'm no stranger to, you know, getting on stage, being under the right lights and then, you know, starting to shed all my layers of clothing, so, so that using all my assets to, to to get an audience to really enjoy the performance. So I guess a part of it is like, yeah, I'm a shameless handler, but not everybody has that in them to, you know, to to get on stage and stop peeling off layers of clothing.

Fern Chan (00:36:21) - But I'll tell you what, though. And when I was active in the burlesque community, there were a lot of shy women who did that. And I, I liken it to the same way as shy people or introverts who have to get up and speak. I say like, put on a persona, right? And you have to then say, you know what I am now? You know, spicy l'amour. That was my stage name. I know I see them on and I am this. So, even if even louder and flamboyant than I am now. Can you imagine? Right. So you know, how how does this character that also gives you a bit of a layer of, you know, that would allow you to be braver and bolder, but your your personality will still shine, right? There's going to be some things about you that innately will come to the forefront and that's like that, whatever that that goddess is in you, that that star that is just innately in you, that's just like waiting to come out.

Fern Chan (00:37:13) - And that's what I think sometimes nerves are to know that just like all your special juju, just waiting to get out into this world.

Kimberly Spencer (00:37:21) - What got you into burlesque?

Fern Chan (00:37:23) - Oh, I think I just signed up for a group on Like The Clown. And I was like, oh, we're putting on a show. I'm like, oh, perfect. I love to, you know, put on a show. Like, again, it's one of those things. It's like, how do you know you can do something? It's just sign up and do it right. That's how I sign up to run a marathon and triathlon and Spartan races and all those things like, well, you know what? I'm just gonna sign up and do it so I can do it. So what?

Kimberly Spencer (00:37:45) - What didn't Berlin. Because I, my sister did burlesque, and I did, pole dancing just just as a pole dancer. Yeah. It's just so much fun. And like, the the, the I never performed outside of for my husband.

Kimberly Spencer (00:37:59) - but that space of of what did burlesque teach you about the physiology of presentation?

Fern Chan (00:38:06) - I think it gives you a lot of confidence. Right. Again, it's it's also managing the nerves, but also when you're putting on a performance and a presentation and a presentation, is this the same way? Right. You need to rehearse. You are not going to go out there cold, right? You need to rehearse, rehearse, rehearse, practice, practice, practice until you have it down pat. Do things fall apart sometimes? Yes. Do some things. Don't come off at the right. Yes. You know, but you know how to manage those sort of wardrobe malfunctions or technical malfunctions, whatever they may be. Because you've rehearsed, you've practiced, and you know you can fall to your highest level of preparation. But if you just go out there and think, I'm just gonna wing it. Oh I'm like, you're on a.

Fern Chan(00:38:48) - Level. You fall to your highest level of preparation like that is golden.

Kimberly Spencer (00:38:54) - That is just a goal. Is that in your book? no.

Fern Chan (00:38:58) - But I do have a mantra, you know, like proper preparation prevents poor performance.

Kimberly Spencer (00:39:02) - Yes.

Fern Chan (00:39:02) - The five Ps. So that's a lot to say. I've trained my kids to say that to properly pressure prevents poor performance. All right. Thank you darling. so yeah. So it's again like prepare, prepare, prepare. Right. So never go in cold, you know. So always rehearse. so this way, it's like, you know, you're not going to go out there and go, oh my God, it's the first time I do it a few times, but yet talk to yourself, record yourself, make sure you have an understanding of how you sound, how you how you how you look. Because we never know. We always think we know, right? Until we see us and go, oh my God, I don't realize I did that. So it's always very eye opening. And then you hear the things that catches you out, like I used to be an amateur and an are.

Fern Chan (00:39:43) - I still am sometimes. And I say right a lot at the end of my sentences. It's just one of those days when you're trying to get your audience to go right, and so they go, yeah, I don't get agreement. Yeah. Right. So again, those are the sort of things it's like, what are you aware of in your verbal cues that you probably don't think about until you hear yourself?

Kimberly Spencer (00:40:00) - Yeah, I think it's so fascinating because the burlesque piece, the mom piece, like those would be a targeted audience then, especially since you can communicate like we were before we started recording, about how to leverage the power of presentation, communication and negotiation with your children. With your children. I mean, you were you were working with cops and hostage negotiators, but kids. Oh.

Fern Chan (00:40:31) - That's true. That is true. You know, how do you make so much of this a part of your life? And I bring my kids into my business, right? I try to make them a part of my business because, you know, I'm a mom, preneur.

Fern Chan (00:40:42) - That's who I am. And how do I use this message and make sure that my children can also see me as a successful person, as a as a business person. It's like, you know, they go, mom, it's like, that means, honey, you have you should prepare, you should practice. You know, you should, you know, do what they have to before you go on stage. So you're not just, you know, winging it. So I think for them to sort of also see how you can model the behavior because they cannot be what they cannot see. Okay. Those.

Kimberly Spencer (00:41:09) - Those. Yeah. Little children. Yeah. The lessons and they don't listen to what we say. They listen to it all.

Fern Chan (00:41:16) - The time outside. But I think it shows us also the, you know I say this like you know I went on stage. Oh God I feel like I was ten months, I was six months pregnant with my child. My first one, I went on stage and I suckered my husband to come on stage with me.

Fern Chan (00:41:30) - And I'm like, you know what? We're going to perform this. It's going to be like a love song to our first child. And so, like, you know, I bless his heart. I love my husband. So he he went along with the first one. He wasn't along with the second one because it was a group number and. I was playing a very pregnant Rizzo for our burlesque performance.

Fern Chan (00:41:49) - And like.

Fern Chan (00:41:50) - I gave birth like four weeks after that show and people like, oh my God, Fern, I hope your water doesn't break. Oh, but I went out there anyway. Belly huge. you know, and and still like, did it. so again, it's, it's one of those things where when you have enough confidence to go out there but also standing in your truth. I love performing, you know, back then and it's like, I love performing. This is a part of me. I'm not going to hide from that. So those are the sort of things that I used.

Fern Chan (00:42:19) - Also like that also helped me gauge audience. Right? When you're onstage and you are the solo artist and you have to get that, you need to see how the audience is responding. How do I make sure that I am, you know, getting them to respond to the performance that I'm giving? and same thing when you're presenting, right? How do I gauge the audience to make sure that's listening to me?

Kimberly Spencer (00:42:38) - Yeah, I think that, you know, there's a lot of, having Coach leaders for now, eight years. There's a lot of fear around certain aspects of their story deteriorating from their quote unquote, professionalism and from who, like. And yet, sure, you are having done burlesque while pregnant, having given a keynote at the United Nations at Vienna, an author, a speaker, did you have any sort of like integration challenges with, like integrating all these different aspects of your story into who you are, or are you just so confident that in in all of the aligned pieces that it just aligns? It's just who you are?

Fern Chan (00:43:22) - Well, I was mindful about some things.

Fern Chan (00:43:24) - Right. I think you're also targeting a very different audience. And then I had I had a nom de plume, I had a stage name. I wasn't going out there as fringe. And I was like, okay, you know, I had a stage name. So this way it's like you have some separation. But did I invite all my colleagues to my shows because I wanted sales of tickets? Absolutely. So I.

Fern Chan (00:43:43) - Don't.

Fern Chan (00:43:45) - I get shameless hand, but that was me. I mean, there are some people who are not comfortable with it and it's okay. Know who you can ask. So they can also celebrate you as a person. Right. And then I think they would call me people again would say like, oh my God, I would never imagine doing that myself, but I would love to support you. So again, you know, a good chunk of my, you know, before even I married my husband, I asked him to come along to a show along with some other guy I was dating.

Fern Chan (00:44:10) - But I just thought they all sit at the same table. But it's one of those things where it's like, hey, this is who I am. And if you can't handle that, then it's okay. You're not for me, right? So so that's more on the personal side. But my husband is like now he's like always on the front row or behind the scenes because he knows that this is who I am. And he loves that he celebrates, that he doesn't hog the limelight. And he gets to say, that's my hot wife up there on stage, and I get to go home with her at night. So that's that's who he is. And I think when I'm in a professional sense, I mean, I don't talk about that on stage, but it's like, wow, when she speaks, she's going to make sure that, you know, she can hold the attention of people. And what she has to say, have that substance is and is going to be important enough that, you know, people will actually pay attention.

Fern Chan (00:44:55) - So again, it's like very targeted, but also making sure that it's succinct enough that, you know, you don't tell it. You're not telling a big backstory before people get to the point of, oh my God, I've forgotten what she said already. But no, that's like somewhat hard hitting facts to make sure people can listen. Because what you said, just like got their attention up front and say, hey, this is the problem we are facing right now. How are we going to reduce this with the limited resources and to make sure we can still hit this target? Blah, blah, blah, blah, whatever that may be, right? It's always one of those things like, you know, the pain of what we're all going through as administrators or whatever it is. Back in the day when I was in higher education, like, how are we going to do all these things with the limited resources that we have? With the constant budget cuts under threat, that our programs will close and still serve adult learners in a way that will help them, you know, improve their lot in life, right? That's always one of those things where it's like, okay, right.

Fern Chan (00:45:47) - And when you can deliver something that says, I have an idea and I have a solution, people are going to like want to listen.

Kimberly Spencer (00:45:54) - Yeah. I would be so interested at how you would leverage going on a podcast that is a burlesque podcast to talk about the presentation skills, because I have a feeling the fact that they're, you know, a lot of women go into burlesque, that where they want to increase their confidence in other areas of their life. And finding how a skill set can be transferable is something that you've mastered, like you've done it. You wrote you and wrote the book on it like that of how to not second presentations. And so being able to be that that testimony in a way, at this transference of skill sets of the performance skill set into the presentation skill set. Now that would be an interesting niche to just attack with podcasts, just to explore and see, see what the ROI is from that for your book.

Fern Chan (00:46:46) - Well, it's so what's interesting too is like people who, you know, the women who do burlesque, you know, they all have day jobs, you know, it's like, what is it that's in their day job now that can they can then sort of think like, well, the skills and the things that I learned as a burlesque dancer, how can I transfer that sense of confidence? Right.

Fern Chan (00:47:04) - That sort of.

Fern Chan (00:47:05) - feeling.

Kimberly Spencer (00:47:06) - On on validation and just adoration when people like. Because I can tell you what it feels like when at the end of performance, people are like, oh my God, that was amazing. That cheering for you. And it's the same sort of kudos that you get at the end when you land a really great presentation and people like smiling. They're asking questions. Are they coming up, you know, coming to you after the presentation, asking more questions. That's like the sort of same feeling, that same high that you get because you made an impact. Is that impression that you left.

Kimberly Spencer (00:47:37) - And that being able to hold that lasting impression, that stick so that they actually have something to do.

Fern Chan (00:47:43) - Right. Because if you did something that was kind of like that, then nobody remembers me. But they remember. Wow. Right. Because again, it's like it doesn't matter. Like, listen, I'm itty bitty club. I'm like 8:00. Plus I got really not much to jiggle at, yo.

Fern Chan (00:47:58) - But you know what? I'm still going to make it my bond. And and, you know, engaging for the thing to enjoy. Right. So I think it doesn't matter. I think it's a lot of it comes through on your your confidence and how you portray yourself. But also how do we engage with the audience, right. How do we get them to to come along with you on this, on this dance, on this journey, you know that you are expressing yourself in?

Kimberly Spencer (00:48:22) - Oh, I love it. And I think just I want the audience to really hear how masterful you are with your communication. Because I hear you. You go from like, your personal examples, anybody to the club to being able to like, move in to the point and the lesson that you want to leverage from owning the vulnerabilities, weaknesses, mistakes, just acceptance of like who you are and you know.

Fern Chan (00:48:53) - Right. Because we are so we are our own harshest critics as well, right? I mean, forget the fact that, hey, we are incredible creators of life, right? And so, yeah, bits have shifted since the kids.

Fern Chan (00:49:05) - And, you know, it's not what we used to be. But guess what? I created life. And that's something to be celebrated. And this is the body I have. Now, listen, I'm still working on those things myself. It's it's always a work in progress, but it's like, gosh, you know, then there's still some bits that are hanging around and you know. Yeah. So it's, you know, again, how do we we're all works in progress. How do we iterate to get better each time. And just like, you know, make sure that, you know, look, we are all amazing. We're all on this journey ourselves. And, you know, you just have to be kind of, like, slightly ahead of other people. You don't have to be sometimes the biggest expert in the world. But listen, I've had enough experience. I can show you my, my, formula of success and what's happened for me. And I hope that, you know, this worked for me and it, you know, hopefully it'll work for you, too.

Fern Chan (00:49:50) - Why don't you try it out?

Kimberly Spencer (00:49:52) - Fern, you've been absolutely extraordinary and I always love to ask before we wrap, what did you love? What did you love about this conversation?

Fern Chan (00:50:02) - Oh my God, I just love how how the synergy right of us like being able to talk about, how do we bring our strengths together, how do we serve our audience that you are so conscious about making sure that you are giving value to your listeners? And I want to make sure that I can help you do that for them, too. So I love that this, you know, how do we help each other? How do we help each other as women? How do we promote each other's strengths? Right. And and making sure that our genius, whatever it is, can get out into the world and serve other people because there's always an audience who you will resonate with or someone's going to say, oh my God, Kimberly spoke to me and spoke to me or whoever that you've had on the show, like spoke to me.

Fern Chan (00:50:43) - And so all those little things like, you don't have to serve everybody because you're not for everybody, but the ones that you can and the ones that you can touch and make an impact. That's what.

Kimberly Spencer (00:50:52) - Matters. Fern how do we find you. How do we work with you. I know your book, How to Not Suck in Presentations is available at all places.

Fern Chan (00:51:03) - Yes. You can get my book at Amazon. easy go to FernChan.com I have resources there. If you want to take a quiz and find out where you are on the sock meter as a presenter, you can take that. It's fun. Lots of Star Wars references to let see whether you are Death Star or rock star, right? So let's see what you land on the gauge. and yeah, you can also find me on Instagram at Fern Chan presents. I'm very active on LinkedIn. You can find me, Fern Chan, and also on Facebook at Fern Chan author phenomenal Fern.

Kimberly Spencer (00:51:35) - As always, communication queens let your voice be heard because your story has the power to save one life and probably more.

Kimberly Spencer (00:51:45) - Till next time.

Kimberly Spencer (00:51:46) - Thank you so much for listening. If you love this episode, subscribe, leave us a review and share it with your friends. For more tips on guest podcasting, storytelling and communication strategies, follow us on social media at Communication Queens Agency and visit us at Communication queens.com. I look forward to seeing you in the next episode. And in the meantime, remember your story has the power to save one life. Let your story and your voice be heard.

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